Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#581

Post by yterdy » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 4:35 PM UTC

devjab wrote: post #426

hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

In Denmark we rarely perform tech interviews the way you Americans do. Part of this is because of how available education is, so virtually everyone who’s applying for a tech job comes with some sort of academic education, meaning that they’ve proven their worth to get it. I’ve worked a side gig as an external examiner for a decade now, I’ve got good confidence in anyone I haven’t failed. Another part is that tech int…

In America, there is a history of using "cultural fit" as an excuse to discriminate against socially marginalized groups (both those that have and haven't escaped economic marginalization in the intervening years). So that's another criterion that Americans will have trouble with: it's difficult to be certain that your lack of "cultural fit" is something fundamental to do with your personality or work style, or if it's some aspect of your identity that is unrelated to your work performance (something that an effective, if biased, employer and team might discover if you were given a chance).

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#582

Post by yterdy » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 4:37 PM UTC

hiq wrote: post #565

yterdy wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What would you do instead? Encourage a competitive market environment where there aren't just a handful of polarized "make it" companies that everyone is applying to regardless of fit or career objective because landing a job there is a golden ticket?

That still doesn't mean the interview process would be any different in this different market environment you're describing.

Maybe. More opportunities for job-seekers to get a Good Job might make any given selection process less cutthroat, though.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#583

Post by Rebelgecko » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 4:38 PM UTC

helen___keller wrote: post #542

HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't characterize Leetcode interviewing as being biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class - it's biasing in favor of those (of any level of experience) who are willing to spend a few months practicing Leetcode. I thought that Google/etc had at least dialed this back a bit, or maybe just dialed back the "how many gas stations are in the US" type questions, after realizing this wasn't the best p…

> or maybe just dialed back the "how many gas stations are in the US" type questions, after realizing this wasn't the best predictor of good performance. These problems (known as fermi problems) have been out of vogue for over a decade now. Google is one of the companies that pioneered algorithm-centric leetcode problems as a replacement for fermi problems. Leetcode problems are not hugely useful outside of the data…

This is pretty consistent with my experience. I had one hardcore algorithms question that I bombed, but the other ones hinged on things like "when should you use a map vs a list" that should be second nature to anyone who has been writing code long enough.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#584

Post by mista2nith » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 4:39 PM UTC

jocaal wrote: post #100

jongjong wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then they will realize that the media has been fully monopolized and can't find get any users and that it's not so easy outside of the cushy confines of Big Tech.

And then they will realize that the people complaining about big tech monopolies and their rent seeking behaviour were maybe not so crazy after all.

Isn't Google the largest DNC donor? Pretty sure we can trust them if so

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#585

Post by smrtinsert » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 4:39 PM UTC

nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

Time to unionize.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#586

Post by trympet » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 4:39 PM UTC

ken47 wrote: post #395

hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

I've seen plenty of HN threads where good alternative processes were described. I'm not going to be exhaustive here: writing a program over a few hours that is reflective of the kind of work that the company actually does, coming up with and debating the architecture of a system, mock code reviews, etc. You might say these don't scale as well as standardized testing of university classical algorithms knowledge. The g…

At big tech companies, "writing a program over a few hours that is reflective of the kind of work that the company actually does" is not really a good, representative performance measure. Often times, you will be solving problems across multiple domains, outside of your area of expertise. You have to take on the role of PM, data scientist, SWE, researcher, etc.

Internal restructuring of the company may even take you from working on backend web apis to distributed databases. It is expected that you re-acclimatize and learn quickly. Giving you a take-home test to write some CRUD app isn't necessarily sampling those same attributes.

p.s.: also not a fan of classical algorithm style interviews. Clearly, they also have a bias.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#587

Post by ngcazz » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 4:40 PM UTC

lgkk wrote: post #183

It’s just business. And it’s not like swe aren’t making 400k or more at least in bay area. People need to understand that just because you have a little bit of RSUs and a 200k base doesn’t mean you’re God. You’re an asset like a machine. And you’re expensive to the bottom line. This is literally explicitly laid out now with section 174. If you’re taking this personally ask yourself why you’re even working for arguabl…

That salary is a reflection of market forces.

The fundamentals remain the same: they are workers who support families of arbitrary needs and complexities and not just themselves. Are they expensive to the bottom line? Good -- they _allow_ the bottom line because they are the ones generating value.

Not the shareholders and upper managers calling for layoffs to maximize their stock prices who you seem to appreciate more.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#588

Post by JohnFen » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 4:42 PM UTC

geraldwhen wrote: post #251

sz4kerto wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree and I am sad that we're teaching each other to be skeptical and cynical. The company is not your friend and not your enemy, I agree. However, people _do_ develop personal relationship with each other. Sometimes even across the different levels in the company hierarchy. Yes, as with any other relationship, circumstances and interests might override this, but relationships still do matter. People have emotio…

This is just unrealistic. When layoffs happens, whole departments can get cut. They don’t differentiate performers. Likewise, there is a huge bias in hiring against older developers. Getting laid off in your 40s is a death sentence. You’ll never make as much money again, and you’ll be lucky to find employment. Be ready to retire by 50, because anything else is both risky and improbable.

> Getting laid off in your 40s is a death sentence. You’ll never make as much money again, and you’ll be lucky to find employment.

This just isn't true as a broad statement, although I don't doubt it's true for some parts of the industry. Big picture, though, older engineers are no less employable than younger ones. In the right company, experienced engineers are valued more highly, even.

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#589

Post by pakitan » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 4:42 PM UTC

xtracto wrote: post #455

hiq wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been obvious for over a decade after they built an interview process that is heavily biased towards those who recently took an algorithms class. What would you do instead? Threads about tech interviews are always the same: we all complain about the process with no real alternative when you want to hire at that scale. In particular about: > Just about every other skill that is needed to be a good software engin…

I've been interviewing people for Software Eng jobs for more than 10 years an I haven't used leetcode style problems for like 8 of those years. Leetcode interviewing is lazy interviewing. It's for when you don't want to put an effort in your interviewing process to check if the candidates have the skills you need for the position you are filling. For example. My interview process nowadays is one web API interaction c…

Do applicants get bonus points if they mention that your steps are incorrectly numbered? :)

Re: Google Cuts Jobs in Engineering and Other Divisions

#590

Post by TrackerFF » Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 4:43 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #554

nly wrote: post #35

My firm made billions last year too and just laid off hundreds of engineers (a decent %) Some of the best engineers, those that I respected the most, went. People who make no sense. After last year's layoffs they told us they were "done" and it was "all behind us". Last year then turned out to a better year financially than 2022 (we have access to the top line numbers) You can't trust anything anyone above you in the…

Who else here feels that humans have an innate need to be emotionally invested in their daily lives ? - goal of your company / values - need to grow - need to perform and be seen as such - need to belong so often we can read warnings about not falling for this, but it's so common .. it's wired in us it seems

It is even worse in certain Asian countries. Your entire identity and self-worth is defined by your work.

I'm just glad that I'm being able to completely disconnect from work, when I check out. My tittle means nothing. Where I work means nothing. I do enjoy my co-workers, that's about it.