'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#581

Post by marcell » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:27 PM UTC

kamikazeturtles wrote: post #380

axus wrote: post #350

My impression is that leaders of both militaries have a goal to remove the civilians of the other side from the borders of Israel, permanently.

When you consider Netanyahu, for years, propped up and funded Hamas, it makes everything more confusing to understand https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

FTA:

    > Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
    >
    > Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.

It sounds like an effort to make Hamas and Gaza peaceful neighbors and normalize the situation. Didn’t work out.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#582

Post by covercash » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:28 PM UTC

edanm wrote: post #406

amluto wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think your take is entirely unreasonable, but I do think you’ve missed a critical detail: Hamas continues to attack Israel. So Israel’s military operation is contemporaneous with a threat, and does at least serve some degree of self-defense purpose. As I understand it (and wow, the press coverage is incomplete in so many ways), Hamas has a very large number of, approximately, these things: https://en.m.wikipe…

I think the rockets being fired into Israel is one threat, but the far greater threat is just Hamas repeating the October 7th invasion again. They've said, numerous times, that they will do it - invade Israel again and again, killing as many Israelis as they can. (Leaders have also said they will kill Jews anywhere in the world, btw.) If Israel doesn't take out Hamas, it is entirely unclear if it will be able to prev…

You can’t take out Hamas with military force unless you eliminate every Palestinian in Gaza. “Hamas” is just the current name for oppressed people pushed to their limits who are using the scraps at their disposal to fight back against decades of abuse. So long as there is an apartheid state there will be people who fight back with whatever they can get their hands on, no matter what they call themselves.

Israel has all the power to end this, but the current government and their supporters view Palestinians as less than human. Coming to any table with that mentality will result in a less than equitable solution which will just perpetuate the oppressive lives of those in Gaza… and allow “Hamas” to live on.

My batshit crazy idea to resolve this… put 10 Israeli mothers who lost children on October 7 and 10 Palestinian mothers who have lost children in the bombings since into a room. Have them share their stories, the memories of those they lost, grieve together… and then task them with finding a solution to make sure no Israeli or Palestinian mother ever has to feel that again. I’d bet everything that they’d come out of that room with an equitable solution.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#583

Post by megous » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:28 PM UTC

amluto wrote: post #355

cassepipe wrote: post #56

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

I don’t think your take is entirely unreasonable, but I do think you’ve missed a critical detail: Hamas continues to attack Israel. So Israel’s military operation is contemporaneous with a threat, and does at least serve some degree of self-defense purpose. As I understand it (and wow, the press coverage is incomplete in so many ways), Hamas has a very large number of, approximately, these things: https://en.m.wikipe…

> Hamas continues to attack Israel.

The rocket launches are usually framed as response to massacres, if you read the launch announcements, btw.

In any case, it's quite doubtful that Israel would stop its aggression, if Gaza would stop firing rockets. The goal has been to "eliminate Hamas" for a few months already, if you want to believe the Israel government's statements. There's no "but if the rocket attacks stop" escape hatch in there. So what it's doing is not really self-defense against rocket attacks, here.

Negotiated or unilateral ceasefire is one tactical way to stop the rocket attacks, right now. It's much cheaper than war, too.

Hamas's way is violent resistance against a violent occupation. The occupation is truly bad. I don't think anyone should expect all Palestinians to just take it. Some will always organize to strike against the occupier, and take pride in it.

So the strategic way would be engaging in honest political solution to the decades long conflict. Israel as an occupier and a much more powerful party in this, has to be the one leading this, if it wants long term peace and not just a truce.

And of course, Israel can also continue it's variant on a quest of "de-Ba'athification" of Gaza, perhaps with similar consequences in the future...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#584

Post by jltsiren » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:29 PM UTC

ashirusnw wrote: post #188

ardit33 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Russia v Ukraine and Israel v Gaza are incomparable, except that they're both wars. A comparable war would be other counter-terrorist warzones like Mosul or Raqqa which in fact have much higher civilian death rate than Gaza. And that's even taking the UNWRA/ Gaza Health numbers at face value, which somehow indicate zero combatants killed in airstrikes.

You are confusing reported and estimated casualties. The reported civilian deaths in the nine-month Battle of Mosul were around 10k. A later estimate put the total number of civilian deaths to ~40k.

The numbers from Gaza are reported deaths, and nobody is seriously disputing them anymore. They are pretty consistent with the claims Israel is making. About two thirds of them should be civilians. That means a bit over 10k dead civilians after 2 months. True civilian casualties are likely higher, but the situation on the ground makes reliable estimates impossible.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#585

Post by neoromantique » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:29 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #516

Invictus0 wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any reason to believe that a Palestinian state with full control of its borders would not immediately begin the process of accumulating weapons to repeat Oct 7? Hamas has never affirmed Israel's right to exist.

Treaties and UN involvement could be arranged to help guarantee this. However, what is clear is that Israel's current approach is not working to ensure its security, and that in the last few decades it has only succeeded in turning the population of Palestine ever more bitter against them. So, unless they are prepared to wipe them out entirely, what possible hope is there in continuing in this direction? Say Hamas is…

>Treaties and UN involvement

UN has assisted Hamas in the past, there is no reason to believe it would be any different this time. The history didn't start on October 7th, what has happened on October 7th is the violence went over the threshold in which Israel would believe intent of international community and instead is handling it themselves despite the uproar.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#586

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:29 PM UTC

whycome wrote: post #218

dang wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been in touch with several Israeli HNers who are in much the same position as you describe, and I admire their, and your, capacity to stay open despite being under orders of magnitude more pressure than most of us here. This is the spirit I'm asking for commenters to find in themselves before posting. (Edit: Lest this seem like an expression of bias: I've been in touch with HNers on the other side of the conflic…

> I've been in touch with HNers on the other side of the conflict as well This thinking kind of reinforces what you're trying to stay away from. There are not just 'two sides' to this. And I'm not sure what you would envision as an HNer from the "other side": someone in support of Hamas? In support of the Palestinian people? I'm only commenting here because I think the bias you fear expressing can still kind of appea…

There are two sides - ordinary people on both sides, who mostly just want it all to stop, and the leaders on both sides, who want it to continue. (As do arms dealers.)

The ordinary people have far more in common with each other than they do with the leaders who are keeping this war running.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#587

Post by davesque » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:29 PM UTC

beeboobaa wrote: post #527

davesque wrote: post #410

It's really disappointing to see so many exceptions to the no politics rule right when we need that rule the most. There really isn't anything to be gained by discussing stories like this. We all know that atrocities are taking place. It's a war zone. A̶l̶s̶o̶,̶ ̶i̶t̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶ ̶g̶l̶a̶r̶i̶n̶g̶l̶y̶ ̶ ̶b̶a̶d̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶t̶i̶c̶l̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶e̶n̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶b̶e̶e̶n̶ ̶a̶l̶l̶o̶w̶e̶d̶ ̶…

What's that supposed bias?

You know what? I went searching just now for examples that I thought could support my argument. But I honestly couldn't find any that really seemed unambiguous or like they couldn't be interpreted in another way. And the ones I had in mind didn't seem like they clearly were arguing for one side of things when I looked at them a second time. So yeah...going to have to walk that particular claim back it seems. But I still don't think we really should be discussing the topic on HN. Seems too fraught to really get any value out of it.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#588

Post by locallost » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:29 PM UTC

blaufast wrote: post #437

I suspect a very large number of people are too smart to speak up, but also resentful of the forces that work to prevent actual nuanced dialogue. That's certainly the sentiment in my bubble. As somebody who isn't fond of the idea of an ethnostate and sees atrocities coming from all of the actors here, I don't feel comfortable speaking up due to the lack of nuance in public forums.

I don't know what to tell you except fighting against something that is wrong but widespread and established cannot be comfortable.

There's nothing really new here. It was not comfortable to be a e.g. civil rights activist in the US during segregation, or a dissident in the eastern block. The question is, what is right and what is wrong. You either accept wrong out of comfort as many people did in the past or reject it.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#589

Post by nico » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:30 PM UTC

emptyfile wrote: post #419

forty wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't defense also supposed to be targeted against an aggressor? How could the millions of innocent civilians that Israel is displacing, destroying all their houses and belongings and killing (and maybe torturing as described in this article), be considered in any way as aggressor? if a terrorist hid in an appartement building, and the police came, start killing all the inhabitants of the building and destroyed the b…

[dead]

> Gaza is the agressor

Sure, if you completely ignore any previous history and the fact that Israel was created by stealing Palestinians’ land

From the other side, you could say Palestinians have never stopped defending themselves

This is not war, this is a brutal genocidal occupation that started many years ago and that Israel is trying to “complete” now by forcefully displacing all Palestinians

The end goal seems to be to occupy as much of “ancestral Israel” as possible

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#590

Post by nahumfarchi » Tue, Dec 12, 2023, 11:30 PM UTC

qwertthrowway wrote: post #426

nahumfarchi wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Jew, I have quite a few qualms with the comparison to Warsaw. I'm not denying the suffering in Gaza in any way, but it's far fetched to put this on the same grounds as Warsaw, in which an estimated 300-400k Jews were murdered, and which was just one of an industrial system of mass murder. I agree that the settlements are an obstacle to peace, no argument there. But there are solid reasons why the border between…

1, this is a human issue above all. One does not have to be Jewish or non-Jewish to recognize the extreme human toll being exacted on Gaza. When I see bombs collapse buildings of innocent residents, hospitals invaded with entire ICU units dying, mass starvation due to a blockade, and a death toll with over 40% being children; I think all of this warrants comparisons with industrial mass murder. Just because it is bei…

1. You've made the comparison between a (if we're being honest here), in the grand scale of things, rather insignificant military conflict between two parties, and industrial scale genocide. So I find the framing problematic. I would like this war to end just as much as you (probably more since I actually have something to lose here). But I don't see an alternative as long as Hamas is in power.

2. OK, let's agree to disagree.

3. I think a more accurate description would be that hardliners on both sides torpedoed it at various points in time. But sure, occupation.

So your solution for two groups of people who can't seem to stop killing each other is to put them together under one state? Sorry, but I think I'll politely pass :)

(And continue to hope for a peaceful, two state solution)