Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO • Hacker News Board

Re: Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO

#581

Post by hotnfresh » Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:41 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #538

hotnfresh wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the board did the right thing, just waaaay too late for it to be effective. They’d been cut out long ago and just hadn’t realized it yet. … but I’d probably sign for exactly those good-career-move reasons, at this point. Going down with the ship isn’t even going to be noticed, let alone change anything.

No, what the board did in this instance was completely idiotic, even if you assign nothing but "good intentions" to their motives (that is, they were really just concerned about the original OpenAI charter of developing "safe AI for all" and thought Sam was too focused on commercialization), and it would have been idiotic even if they had done it a long time ago. There are tons of "Safe AI" think tanks and orgs that…

If it was to try to prevent the board becoming a useless vestigial organ incapable of meaningfully affecting the direction of the organization, it sure looks like they were right to be worried about that and acting on such concern wouldn’t be a mistake (doing it so late when the feared-state-of-things was already the actual state of things, yes, a mistake, except as a symbolic gesture).

If it was for other reasons, yeah, may simply have been dumb.

Re: Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO

#582

Post by ben_w » Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #419

ben_w wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget some might be on holiday, medical leave, or parental leave.

It's front page news everywhere. Unless someone is backpacking outside of cellular range, they're going to check in on the possible collapse of their company. The number of employees who aren't aware of and engaged with what's going on is likely very small, if not zero.

10% (the percentage who have yet to sign last I checked) is already in the realm of lizard-constant small. And "engagement" may feel superfluous even to those who don't separate work from personal time.

(Thinking of lizards, the dragon I know who works there is well aware of what's going on, I've not asked him if he's signed it).

Re: Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO

#583

Post by Solvency » Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

Applejinx wrote: post #547

paulddraper wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jobs was fired from Apple, and a number of employees followed him to Next. Different, but that's the closest parallel.

Gordon Ramsey quit Aubergine over business differences with the owners and had his whole staff follow him to a new restaurant. I'm not going to say Sam Altman is a Gordon Ramsay. What I will say is that they both seem to have come from broken, damaged childhoods that made them what they are, and that it doesn't automatically make you a good person just because you can be such an intense person that you inspire loyalt…

Aaand there you have it: cargo culting in full swing.

Re: Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO

#584

Post by alephnerd » Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #557

alephnerd wrote: post #84

As I posted elsewhere, I think this is a conflict between Dustin Moskovitz and Sam Altman. Ilya may have been brought into this without his knowledge (which might explain why he retracted his position). Dustin Moskovitz was an early employee at FB, and the founder of Asana. He also created (along with plenty of MSFT bigwigs) a non-profit called Open Philanthropy, which was a early proponent of a form of Effective Alt…

More confusion - Emmett Shear is a close friend of Sam Altman. He was part of the original 2005 YCombinator class alongside Altman, part of the justin.tv mafia, and later a part-time partner at YCombinator. I don't think he has any such close ties to Dustin Moskovitz. Why would the Dustin-leaning OpenAI board install him as interim CEO? This whole thing still seems to have the air of a pageant to me, where they're ma…

He's part of the EA community which Moskovitz funded. He was even named in Yudkowsky's warcrime of a Harry Potter fanfic [0][1]

[0] - https://www.404media.co/new-openai-ceo-emmett-shear-was-mino...

[1] - https://hpmor.com/chapter/104?ref=404media.co

Re: Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO

#585

Post by robg » Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:42 PM UTC

dist-epoch wrote: post #304

robg wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about: Intercontinental ballistic missiles launch from Alaska toward China. No one knows who ordered and controls the launch. Only one man can stop them in time: Elon Musk.

GPT-5 predicted that and organized a gas-lighting campaign on X against Musk to enrage and distract him.

While he built a rocket company and global telecommunications satellite network both hardened unlike any other against rogue AIs…

Duh, duh, dunnnnnnnne…

Third act we find out Musk was the villain all along, X being the final solution for his global mind hive.

Fin.

Re: Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO

#586

Post by jacquesm » Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #568

jacquesm wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all about diligence and prudence. I don't see much evidence of either and that means the employees may well have a point. Incidentally: the word 'care' was very explicitly used in the letter.

> It's all about diligence and prudence. Diligience and prudence apply to the things to which they actually are obligated in the first place, which the employees’ livelihood beyond contracted pay and benefits for the time actually worked simply is not included in .

> which the employees’ livelihood beyond contracted pay and benefits for the time actually worked simply is not included in

Quite a few of those employees are also stockholders, besides that this isn't some kids game where after a few rounds you can throw your cards on the table and walk out because you feel that you've had enough of it. You join a board because you are an adult that is capable of forethought and adult behavior.

I don't quite get why this is even controversial, there isn't a board that I'm familiar with, including non-profits that would be so incredibly callous towards everybody affected by their actions with the expectation that they would get away with it. Being a board member isn't some kind of magic invulnerability cloak, and even non-profits have employees, donors and benificaries who all have standing regarding decisions affecting their stakeholdership.

Re: Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO

#587

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #562

dragonwriter wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you can wave away your duty of care to close to a thousand people based on the 'charitable mission' What specific duty of care do you think exists, and to which thousand people, and on what basis do you believe this duty exists?

Board members are supposed to exercise diligence and prudence in their decisions. They are supposed to take into account all of the results of their actions and they are supposed to ensure that there are no conflicts of interest where their decisions benefit them outside of their role as board members (if there are they should abstain from that particular vote, assuming they want to be on the board in the first place…

> Board members are supposed to exercise diligence and prudence in their decisions.

Yes, and if they fail to do so in regards to the things they are legally obligated to care for, like the charitable mission, people who have a legally-cognizable interest in the thing they failed to pursue with diligence and prudence have a claim.

But whose legally cognizable interest (and what specific such interest) do you think is at issue here?

> The thing that doesn't exist is a board that is unaccountable for their actions

Sure, there are specific parties who have specific legally cognizable interests and can hold the board accountable via legal process for alleged failures to meet obligations in regard to those specific interests.

I’m asking you to identify the specific legally-cognizable interest you believe is at issue here, the party who has that interest, and your basis for believing that it is a legally-cognizable interest of that party against the board.

Re: Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO

#588

Post by Mandelmus » Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:43 PM UTC

codethief wrote: post #559

bertil wrote: post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would explain why Sam wants the whole board gone and not one or two members, while he was very fast to welcome Ilya back.

> while he was very fast to welcome Ilya back Was he? I must have missed that in all this chaos.

https://twitter.com/sama/status/1726594398098780570

Re: Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO

#589

Post by zoogeny » Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:44 PM UTC

I was considering this when I saw the huge outpouring from OpenAI employees.

It seems the agreement between Nadella and Altman was probably something like: Altman and Brockman can come to MS and that gives OpenAI employees an immediate place to land while still remaining loyal to Altman. No need to wait and maybe feel comfortable at an OpenAI without Altman for the 3-6 months it would take to set up a new business (e.g. HR stuff like medical plans and other insurances which may be important to some and lead them to stay put for the time being).

This deal with MS would give cover for employees to give a vote of no-confidence to the board. Pretty smart strategy I think. Also a totally credible threat. If it didn't end up with such a landslide of employee support for Altman then MS is happy, Altman is probably happy for 6-12 months until he gets itchy feet and wants to start his next world-changing venture. Employees that move are happy since they are now in one of the most stable tech companies in the world.

But now that 90% of employees are asking the board to resign the tide swings back in Altman's favor. I was surprised that the board held out against MS, other investors and pretty much the entire SV Twitter and press. I can't imagine the board can sustain themselves given the overwhelming voice of the employees. I mean, if they try then OpenAI is done for. Anyone who stays now is going to have black mark on their resume.

Re: Sam Altman is still trying to return as OpenAI CEO

#590

Post by tedmiston » Mon, Nov 20, 2023, 9:44 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #557

alephnerd wrote: post #84

As I posted elsewhere, I think this is a conflict between Dustin Moskovitz and Sam Altman. Ilya may have been brought into this without his knowledge (which might explain why he retracted his position). Dustin Moskovitz was an early employee at FB, and the founder of Asana. He also created (along with plenty of MSFT bigwigs) a non-profit called Open Philanthropy, which was a early proponent of a form of Effective Alt…

More confusion - Emmett Shear is a close friend of Sam Altman. He was part of the original 2005 YCombinator class alongside Altman, part of the justin.tv mafia, and later a part-time partner at YCombinator. I don't think he has any such close ties to Dustin Moskovitz. Why would the Dustin-leaning OpenAI board install him as interim CEO? This whole thing still seems to have the air of a pageant to me, where they're ma…

> More confusion - Emmett Shear is a close friend of Sam Altman. He was part of the original 2005 YCombinator class alongside Altman, part of the justin.tv mafia, and later a part-time partner at YCombinator. ... Why would the Dustin-leaning OpenAI board install him as interim CEO?

This was my first thought too: Is this a concession of the board to install a Sam friendly-ish Interim CEO?

It reads weird on paper.