Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI • Hacker News Board

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#581

Post by kragen » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 1:56 AM UTC

rafaelero wrote: post #338

eightysixfour wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah - I think this is the schism. Sam is clearly a product person, these are AI people. Dev day didn’t meaningfully move the needle on AI, but for people building products it sure did.

The fact that this is a schism is already weird. Why do they care how the company transforms the technology coming from the lab into products? It's what pay their salaries in the end of the day and, as long as they can keep doing their research work, it doesn't affect them. Being resented about a thing like this to the point of calling it a "absolute embarrassment" when it clearly wasn't is childish to say the least.

this is sort of why henry ford left the company he founded before the ford we know, i think around 01902. his investors saw that they had a highly profitable luxury product on their hands and wanted to milk it for all it was worth, much like haynes, perhaps scaling up to build dozens of custom cars per year, like the pullman company but without needing railroads, and eventually moving downmarket from selling to racecar drivers and owners of large companies, to also selling to senior executives and rich car hobbyists, while everyday people continued to use horse-driven buggies. ford, by contrast, had in mind a radically egalitarian future that would reshape the entire industrial system, labor-capital relations, and ultimately every moment of day-to-day life

for better or worse, ford got his wish, and drove haynes out of the automobile business about 20 years later. if he'd agreed to spend day and night agonizing over how to get the custom paint job perfect on the car they were delivering to mr. rockefeller next month, that wouldn't have happened, and if fordism had happened at all, he wouldn't have been part of it. maybe france or japan would be the sole superpower today

probably more is at stake here

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#582

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 1:57 AM UTC

true_religion wrote: post #570

jacquesm wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Provided a good enough reason there were many ways in which the board could have fired Altman without making waves. They utterly f'd that up, and even if their original reasons were good the way they went about it made those reasons moot. They may have to re-instate Altman for optical reasons alone at this point and it would still be a net win. What an incredible shit show.

I don’t really see the point in not making waves. OpenAi is not a public company. Optics and the like don’t really matter as much if you’re not a for profit company trying to chase down investors and customers. So long as OpenAi continues to be able to do research, it’s enough to fulfill their charter.

OpenAI is not a public company but it does have a commercial arm and that commercial arm has shareholders and customers. You don't do damage to such a constellation without a really good reason (if only because minority shareholder lawsuits are a thing, and acting in a way that damages their interests tends to have bad consequences if they haven't been given the opportunity to lodge their objections). To date no reason has been given that stands up to scrutiny given the incredibly unexpected firing of Sam Altman. It is of course possible that such a reason exists but if they haven't made it public by now then my guess it that it was a powerplay much more than some kind of firing offense and given Sam's position it would take a grave error, something that damaged OpenAI's standing more than the firing itself to justify it.

Optics matter a lot, even for non-profits, especially for non-profits nominally above a for-profit. Check out their corporate org chart to see how it all hangs together and then it may make more sense:

https://openai.com/our-structure

Each of the boxes where the word 'investor' or 'employee' is present would have standing to sue if the OpenAI board of directors of the non-profit would act against their interests. That may not work out in the long run but in the short term that could be immensely distracting and it could even affect board members privately.

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#583

Post by jjeaff » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 2:00 AM UTC

fsociety wrote: post #100

peter422 wrote: post #59

I know everybody is going nuts about this, but just from my personal perspective I’ve worked at a variety of companies with “important” CEOs, and in every single one of those cases had the CEO left I would not have cared at all. The CEO always gets way too much credit externally for what the company is doing, it does not mean the CEO is that important. OpenAI might be different, I don’t have any personal experience,…

On the other hand, I have seen an executive step away from a large company and then everything coincidentally goes to shit. It’s hard to measure the effectiveness of an executive.

It's hard to judge based on that, because a lot of times, CEOs are fired because they have done things that are putting the company on a bad trajectory or just because the company was on a bad trajectory for whatever reason. So firing the CEO is more of a signal than a cause.

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#584

Post by cdogl » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 2:03 AM UTC

throwaway35i2 wrote: post #532

emptysongglass wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you still hireable? If I knew you orchestrated two coups at previous companies and I was responsible for hiring, you would be radioactive to me. Especially knowing that all that effort went into putting together a successful coup over other work. Coups, in general, are the domain of the petty. One need only look at Ilya and D'Angelo to see this in action. D'Angelo neutered Quora by pushing out its co-founder,…

Are you the sort of person that hires someone that can successfully organize a coup against corporate leadership? It feels like there is an impedance mismatch here.

If I'm confident in my competence and the candidate has a trustworthy and compelling narrative about how they undermined incompetent leadership to achieve a higher goal - yep, for sure.

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#585

Post by glitchc » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 2:05 AM UTC

CEOs are largely irrelevant to the success of a company. Sam's a blowhard anyways, OpenAI is better off for this move.

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#586

Post by ehnto » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 2:09 AM UTC

galangalalgol wrote: post #332

dragonwriter wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> split the company into two camps The split existed long prior to the board action, and extended up into the board itself. If anything, the board action is a turning point toward decisively ending the split and achieving unity of purpose.

Can someone explain the sides? Ilya seems to think transformers could make AGI and they need to be careful? Sam said what? "We need to make better LLMs to make more money."? My general thought is that whatever architecture gets you to AGI, you don't prevent it from killing everyone by chaining it better, you prevent that by training it better, and then treating it like someone with intrinsic value. As opposed to lock…

I don't think it has to be unfettered progress that Ilya is slowing down for. I could imagine there is a push to hook more commercial capabilities up to the output of the models, and it could be that Ilya doesn't think they are competent/safe enough for that.

I think danger from AGI often presumes the AI has become malicious, but the AI making mistakes while in control of say, industrial machinery, or weapons, is probably the more realistic present concern.

Early adoption of these models as controllers of real world outcomes is where I could see such a disagreement becoming suddenly urgent also.

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#587

Post by glitchc » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 2:09 AM UTC

goldinfra wrote: post #369

peter422 wrote: post #59

I know everybody is going nuts about this, but just from my personal perspective I’ve worked at a variety of companies with “important” CEOs, and in every single one of those cases had the CEO left I would not have cared at all. The CEO always gets way too much credit externally for what the company is doing, it does not mean the CEO is that important. OpenAI might be different, I don’t have any personal experience,…

It's completely ignorant to discount all organizational leaders based on your extremely limited personal experience. Thousands of years of history proves the difference between successful leaders and unsuccessful leaders. Sam Altman has been an objectively successful leader of OpenAI. Everyone has their flaws, and I'm more of a Sam Altman hater than a fan, but even I have to admit he led OpenAI to great success. He d…

> Sam Altman has been an objectively successful leader of OpenAI.

In what way, exactly? ChatGPT would have been built regardless of whether he was there or not. It's not like he knows how to put a transformer pipeline together. The success of OpenAI's product rests on its scientists and engineers, not the CEO, and certainly not a non-technical one like Mr. Altman.

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#588

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 2:13 AM UTC

fourside wrote: post #150

jjfoooo4 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OpenAI’s biggest issue is that it has no moat. The product is a simple interface to a powerful model, and it seems likely that any lead they have in the power of the model can be quickly overcome should they decrease R&D. The model is extremely simple to integrate and access - unlike something like Uber, where tons of complexity and logistics is hidden behind a simple interface, an easy interface to OpenAI’s model ca…

I’d say OpenAI branding is a moat. The ChatGPT name is unique sounding and also something that a lot of lay people are familiar with. Similar to how it’s difficult for people to change search engine habits after they come to associate search with Google, I think the average person was starting to associate LLM capabilities with ChatGPT. Even my non technical friends and family have heard of and many have used ChatGPT…

For many people ChatGPT is the brand (or even just GPT).

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#589

Post by kristjansson » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 2:23 AM UTC

cthalupa wrote: post #304

exitb wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft reportedly invested 13 billion dollars and has a generous profit sharing agreement. They don’t have enough to control OpenAI, but does that mean the company can actively steer away from profit?

Yes. Microsoft had to sign an operating agreement when they invested that said the company has no responsibility or obligation to turn a profit. LLCs are able to structure themselves in such a way that their primary duty is not towards their shareholders. https://openai.com/our-structure - check out the pinkish-purpleish box. Every investor and employee in the for-profit has to agree to this as a condition of their i…

Just the pure chutzpah to say

> with the understanding that it may be difficult to know what role money will play in a post-AGI world

Re: Details emerge of surprise board coup that ousted CEO Sam Altman at OpenAI

#590

Post by Aloha » Sun, Nov 19, 2023, 2:26 AM UTC

emptysongglass wrote: post #517

HAL3000 wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has orchestrated two coups in different organizations, where the leadership did not align with the organization's interests and missions, I can assure you that the final stage of such a coup is not something that can be executed after just an hour of preparation or thought. It requires months of planning. The trigger is only pulled when there is sufficient evidence or justification for such action. Bui…

How are you still hireable? If I knew you orchestrated two coups at previous companies and I was responsible for hiring, you would be radioactive to me. Especially knowing that all that effort went into putting together a successful coup over other work. Coups, in general, are the domain of the petty. One need only look at Ilya and D'Angelo to see this in action. D'Angelo neutered Quora by pushing out its co-founder,…

Why is there a presumption that it must take precedence over other work?

I've run or defended against 'grassroots organizations transformations' (aka, a coup) at several non-profit organizations, and all of us continued to do our daily required tasks while the politicking was going on.