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Why I Left Rust

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Re: Why I Left Rust

#581

Post by spaetzleesser »

quotemstr wrote: post #305
paddw wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This whole exchange feels off. Essentially, the underlying spat is over a strong technical disagreement, but it is being prosecuted in this weirdly stylized language of emotion and abuse. I have no idea how something like this can be overcome so long as the core Rust community feels this is an acceptable way to handle things. Clearly this is something which extends beyond the immediate leadership team.

We've deprived a whole generation of the rhetorical tools for healthy, impersonal and professional argument. It's no wonder that they've pressed this "stylized language of emotion and abuse" into service to fill the void: it's all they know.

The previous generations didn’t exactly set a good example for healthy, impersonal and professional argument.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#582

Post by coldtea »

infamouscow wrote: post #415
snek_case wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think it parallels the Christian Crusades where crusaders believed they had a moral duty to reclaim the holy land and convert people to Christianity, causing enormous damage in the process. Similarly, the Rust™ ecosystem largely believes they have a moral imperative to replace all software for the cause of memory safety. Much like priests hidden away in their sacristies, the Rust™ community meets my criticisms with…

>I think it parallels the Christian Crusades where crusaders believed they had a moral duty to reclaim the holy land and convert people to Christianity, causing enormous damage in the process

Perhaps those crusaders have also witnessed several centuries of islamic invasions of said lands, and countries all around the general area, and the takeover by force of the local populations...

Re: Why I Left Rust

#583

Post by thesuperbigfrog »

dralley wrote: post #545
thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The Rust project needs to stamp this out before it begins to fester. This is incredibly stupid behavior coming from what is being regarded as the next C++. >> Come on, Rust committee. Let's grow up here, shall we? It is too much power held by one group with too little accountability. More transparency is needed and more people from different organizations need to be involved. The fact that JT and the rest of us ha…

It seems like the problem here is not even power of one group, but an individual doing an end run around the group.

>> It seems like the problem here is not even power of one group, but an individual doing an end run around the group.

If so where is the transparency and accountability?

Who was the individual? Why did they do what they did?

If they do not represent project leadership, what will be done to fix this situation and prevent similar problems in the future?

If they do represent project leadership, why weren't the changes and the reasons for the changes communicated better?

A group of people mysteriously calling the shots in a closed room ultimately alienates the community and will stifle the long-term success of Rust.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#585

Post by bybybyby »

lost_tourist wrote: post #453
bybybyby wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Everyone has an opinion. That's why we have committees, governments, etc, to have a voice. However, your or my opinion is no more valuable than anyone else's except to ourselves. I have definitely taken criticism of my code and architecture very hard, once I even got up after a meeting after my group voting against my architecture. I put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into over about a month of late nights and plen…

And that's the problem.

You never stated the logical reason for why gender and race is different from technical opinions.

If I say gender dysphoria is an actual disease and defect in human biology and that gender reassignment only causes more problems then it fixes. Then that is an aspect of the truth. It is uncomfortable, but it is the truth.

Why should my comfort have extraordinary protection in this area but not in technical opinions?

I'll tell you why. Because neither should have protection. Discomfort shouldn't be protected. Only truth should be protected.

I agree with you in everything discomfort should have no protections at all, but the problem here is you're having a hard time separating truth and discomfort in the areas of gender and race. But you have an easy time of doing it with technical opinions. That is your bias.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#586

Post by spaetzleesser »

bradleyjg wrote: post #337
adave wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let us see you rewrite it given the community culture and guidelines. Can't write i left because of toxic pieces of shit people with zero empathy.

Here’s chatgpt: —- My decision to leave was driven by witnessing the negative impact on JeanHeyd resulting from the actions taken by Rust. The situation raised concerns about the treatment and the breach of trust that occurred. It made me reflect on the role I played in the development of the system and whether I want to continue to be associated with it. —- No weeping, no histrionic claims of betrayal.

That’s actually very good

Re: Why I Left Rust

#587

Post by philstephenson »

dagmx wrote: post #489
Roark66 wrote: post #294

I was with you until this part: >It was JeanHeyd who called Rust out for having no Black representation among Rust conference speakers. Rightly so, as both the Rust organization and the conferences had little to no Black representation. Am I the only one that considers such arbitrary "diversity enforcement policy" horribly racist? No organisation should be "called out for a lack of - insert-race-here- representation…

[flagged]

> Let me flip your quote back on you: how can intelligent people still believe in unbiased meritocracy being the default? Very few people I think would argue that systems based on meritocracy have zero bias. This is not the point. The point is that today’s conventional wisdom by the progressive left is that these biases must be resolved by a system of affirmative action where every sub culture or group somehow is proportionally representative of the overall population based on race, gender, etc. For some reason, that outcome is thought to be the best way to affirm that no bias exists in a group. Personally I think that premise is just very flawed. Meritocracy is not a perfect system. No one is saying that. But it’s the best system we have for engaging with the actual content that is relevant to any given group. As far as bias is concerned, the best we can do is call out specific instances of it and try to squash and correct those (and maybe this case in this blog post is one). There is no commonly understood way to measure bias or racism that everyone agrees with and so why would we think that measuring representation would somehow be the best solution?

Re: Why I Left Rust

#588

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

peterfirefly wrote: post #401
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not, but the context is a conference in the US.

And you got it wrong. The Irish were not considered non-white. The ethnic divisions were (and are) most definitely not just White vs PoC. It used to be extremely important whether a person was a Catholic or a Protestant, for example, all other kinds of Christianity being conveniently ignored. I liked JeanHeyd's blog because he is a good writer (but a bit on the chatty side). I also love what he does for the C standar…

> The Irish were not considered non-white.

They absolutely were and you can find writing by Ben Franklin in their own words saying so explicitly.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#589

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

kzrdude wrote: post #334
jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"White" is rather emphatically not like other ethnic or racial labels. Throughout the history of the US, who counts as "white" has been redefined many times to suit the political goals of the people at the time. In the era of the founding fathers, the Irish, Spaniards, Italians, all considered not white. Then during various times, often driving by waves of immigration of some other ethnicity people were freaking out…

I'm not from anywhere close to the US cultural sphere. This aspect is one of the reasons I'm very uncomfortable with all the classification of people into races. There's always a hierarchy implied, even inside the white category, a ranking of more or less white, questionably or unquestionably white etc. It's not the world I want, I don't want to internalize these (unspoken) classifications of people.

It's not the world I want either but denying this is what exists in reality in some false appeal to "can't we just ignore race" is equivalent to saying to people who are currently discriminated against "suffer in silence."

You do what you want but I'm not going to do that.

Re: Why I Left Rust

#590

Post by levihaku »

jlpom wrote: post #455
scns wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of The Tyranny of Structurelessness [0], even though there is a structure. My bet would be, no matter how smart you are, your ape genes have more to say than your brain. The rider (mind) and the elephant (emotions + brain stem) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyranny_of_Structurelessne...

I don’t get the relation between structure and emotions.

[flagged]
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