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The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

efinancialcareers.com

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Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#581

Post by b20000 »

jedberg wrote: post #142

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

i have no problem with any of the above.

when i interviewed for netflix i had to study their ridiculous culture document and found out it was a cult. i heard terrible stories of people being insulted openly. and you have to deal with endless leetcode bullshit interviews at FAANG which have nothing to do with your job and which disregards the years of experience you’ve built up all in the name of interviewing efficiency.

FAANG people don’t understand performance or latency anyway. they are focused on other things typically.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#582

Post by menaerus »

zozbot234 wrote: post #526
trinovantes wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably want the performance of C++ without the learning curve of Rust It's not like C++20 is completely different. There's just a lot more utilities in the stdlib so hopefully less raw pointer magic.

What learning curve? Rust is easier than C++, and a whole lot easier than C++20 further extended with modern safety guidelines.

Right, "easier" as in:

- Immature compiler susceptible to generating performance traps

- Build times even longer than the infamous ones in C++

- Simplistic declarative-based build system

- Inability to opt-in or to opt-out from static analysis

- Harder to scratch up quick PoCs because borrow-checker

- More complicated compilation model making it harder to understand, debug and implement workarounds when codegen goes south

- Much smaller ecosystem - libraries, toolchains, tools, ...

- False sense of security - by default it relies on the ecosystem whose runtime and its OS is implemented in "unsafe" languages

- Cannot even live to its "safety" promise because hardest problems cannot be solved without unsafe sections

I sincerely wish it was different but at this moment I am not convinced that Rust trade-offs are worth switching to it. This is the PoV coming from a system-level programming, very close to the OS, and with a lot of difficult memory and concurrency scaling issues.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#583

Post by lenkite »

mr_00ff00 wrote: post #412
tw1984 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for stuff like gaming & HFT, you are probably forced to do it in C++, it is a sad reality affecting small % of developers. for everything else, if you are still building fresh new projects in C++, you are making a big mistake. C++ today is like Cobol in 2010. yes, there are reasons for them to exist, people tell your the good old days, probably some fresh good recent experience. but come on, there is a much better pl…

Why is gaming and HFT forced to be C++? Just that code already exists in C++ and you need to expand on it? Gaming has Unreal but surely you could use another game engine without C++?

Rust doesn't even have support for custom allocators in the language/stdlib. Still waiting on https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/42774.

bumpalo doesn't cut it. Funny thing is that boring and sensible Go just came out with arenas support.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#584

Post by AshamedCaptain »

spoiler wrote: post #102
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I didn't want to be stuck in my 40s-50s with a unless skillset and have to start back from the beginning. This is absolutely nonsensical. In 20 years no one will remember about NodeJS (or it will not be the mainstream tool for web dev), but the C++ CAD application will definitely still be here, in both use and active development, and it will very likely still be in C++. Just think about it. The last C++ CAD applica…

You're conflating runtime and language. I doubt JS or TS will go away anytime soon, seeing as they power the Web. Sure, there will be ways to augment them and the languages evolved since what they used to be, but I don't think they'll "die"

I am not conflating, just replying to OP. Anyway, even if you do want to talk about web dev in general... how did web dev look in 1987, again?

The mere fact that you are listing languages that are only a decade or so old in your statement should be a rather large hint that web development is a much faster moving target, and highly unlikely to still be recognizable in a couple decades.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#585

Post by msm_ »

orf wrote: post #519
marssaxman wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps it would have been helpful to actually say that given that this is not a forum aimed at or primarily populated by people who work in or around finance. In a general context, "8:30 to 5 and you can't work from home" sounds like a description of the standard 20th century business schedule.

Are you really, truly not familiar with the idea that the finance industry stereotypically requires long hours and values work over all else, at an institutional level? OP could have spelled it out, but in any communication there is a level of shared knowledge. When you read a comment that you understand to be complaining about making nearly a million dollars whilst working 9/5 in the office, a more charitable path w…

> Are you really, truly not familiar with the idea that the finance industry stereotypically requires long hours and values work over all else, at an institutional level?

Not the person you're replying to, but I was not aware. I guess we have a different cultural backgrounds and some things that are obvious for most of this website are not for me.

Also this makes me even more confused. So OP actually expects being pressured into working overtime (irrelevant where - at home or in the office)? And that's not even their main issue?

What's the point of getting a double salary if you have to work twice as much? Can't they (as a great software developer with a strong work ethics and a good work-life balance they clearly have) just... refuse the overtime?

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#586

Post by pnt12 »

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #415
netheril96 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least around here (Europe), 1.5-2x more EEs graduate each year compared to CS people, Do you know the reason for that? EE is significantly harder to learn than CS, so it baffles me why more people are choosing EE.

It baffles you that people study the subject that they're most interested in?

One of my high school teachers, who I respect a lot, argued that what a CS grad can do, an EE grad could as weel, and more. Therefore he recommended the EE career.

I wanted to get away from physics so I ignored that, and in hindsight it was 100% the right choice. But the advice was well intentioned and I considered it.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#587

Post by pgwhalen »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #370
95014_refugee wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FoH = Front of House, i.e. directly supporting customer activity.

just a side note: long before a small part of the programming world took over this acronym, it used to mean the sound engineer (and sometimes other staff) that were in the venue, embedded in the crowd, working on live sound while the talent was up on stage. "back of house" was behind the stage, "front of house" was the room/venue itself, and the people working in it.

I’m not sure the programming world took over the acronym, I think OP just confused them. In finance at least, the terms Front Office and Back Office are used. I’ve never heard anyone use the restaurant/entertainment variants used.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#588

Post by inamberclad »

kova12 wrote: post #101
inamberclad wrote: post #55

A lot of experienced Google engineers are now going to be looking for work. This includes people with decades of C++ experience.

Good devs are probably not the ones being laid off at Google

Well my whole org was axed, including a combined 50+ years of C++ experience on my team of 6.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#589

Post by nurettin »

jedberg wrote: post #142

There are plenty of talented C++ programmers. They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture. Even paying them more won't work, because no amount of money is worth that abuse. I interviewed at a trading firm once, while I was working at Netflix (because Netflix encouraged us to interview for outside jobs at least once a year). The comp would have been double my Netflix salary. But I would…

> They just don't want to be abused by trading firms or work in that culture.

Tell that to the hippie pinko commies. I love trading firms and their culture. What I don't like is IBM style artificial pushing of "company values" and the kind of dystopian "sensitivity training" right out of an orwell novel.

Re: The pool of talented C++ developers is running dry

#590

Post by jleahy »

valdiorn wrote: post #542
DrBazza wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't take a job because it's 8.30 to 5 and because of some undefined 'abuse'? That's what you've written? Maybe it really isn't for you. On the other hand I've worked in this industry for 30 years, and done those hours, and longer, for 30 years, and enjoyed more or less every minute of it. I've flown all over the world, and been to various events and conferences that I would not have had a chance to do in anoth…

I worked for the G company I'm assuming you're referring to :) I left because of the insane paranoid culture. I do however share the same sentiment as the parent poster - I interviewed for XTX for a c++ role when I quit and during one of the interviews I asked about on-call rota and out of hours work. The answer I got: "oh, it's not too bad. We have a weekly rota, you can expect to get called maybe 3 or 4 times... a…

That was 6 years ago and it was indeed tough back then, we were rewriting a huge trading system from Java -> C++ while trying to keep our edge. However, we succeeded and things have changed considerably since. We also have a dev working in Singapore now which makes support significantly better.

We were at least honest in the interview process regarding hours, there are companies where you would only find that out after starting. There were people who were willing to go through that pain and I think they would agree they were well rewarded but I understand some people want different things from their careers.

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