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Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

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Re: Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

#581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really doubt it was the "similarity to meat" that gave you those symptoms (though obviously there is no way for me to verify that, so you have the last word on what happens in your own body). Anyway - there is a great comment that I saved ( https://www.facebook.com/david.zilber/posts/pfbid02CkCY53qDd... ) "Here’s a pesky little chemical called hexanal. If you’ve ever eaten a beyond burger, or any of these plant bas…

While this very well may be true, on this website I think we should hold our science to a higher standard than random Facebook comments

So, if I had posted this myself as a random HN comment, it would be fine but a random Facebook comment should somehow be held to a higher standard?

Re: Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

#582
Anyone who's had Indian food can say that you don't need meat to have a delicious meal. European and American food uses vegetables mostly plain, so of course it's not going to be the same as meat. But try any veg curry and then tell me you'd rather have Beyond Meat.

Re: Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

#583
post #481

This editorialized link title and the article's headline itself doesn't really match the article's content (as is increasingly common it seems). Sure, Beyond Meat has had lower sales- but soon after they mention that retail sales of Impossible meat products increased 50% in 2022- with an odd "but the CEO left so they're in trouble" assessment which seems a bit bonkers. Then the author seems to say that because fake m…

The fundamental problem is that everyone has a different reason for wanting plant-based meat/fake meat. So by any particular metric, they have failed. Some people want fake meat to be a 1:1 meat substitute because they love meat but can't eat it (allergies, cardiovascular, etc). Some people want cheaper meat because quality meat you can trust has grown too expensive. Some people want more vegan/vegetarian options bec…

This doesn't make any sense at all. Every one has different reasons for wanting most products. It's this nuance that is at the foundation of the entire field of marketing, and finding appeal for any product in the marketplace.

There are products that are extremely niche that serve very specific purposes that are considered very successful, and there are products that serve very broad appeal across a wide subsection of the population that by all metrics would be considered "failed" (e.g. loss leaders).

The mere fact that you can walk into most restaurants or grocery stores and see an explosion of plant-based alternatives, and that the meat industry itself has been one of the main investors in this space should provide all of the evidence that is contrary to the point you're making.

This article is, quite frankly, an author in search of a specific narrative.

Re: Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meat tastes really good. I think there are many people who want to eat less meat but really enjoy meat. I am one of those people.

Agreed. My family has a long history of cardiovascular problems so I am trying to cut down on red meat myself to possibly extend my life...but dangit I want some chicken fried steak and cheeseburgers. I might use impossible burgers to satiate my cravings in a heart-healthy way, but it just isn't the same.

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Re: Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental problem is that everyone has a different reason for wanting plant-based meat/fake meat. So by any particular metric, they have failed. Some people want fake meat to be a 1:1 meat substitute because they love meat but can't eat it (allergies, cardiovascular, etc). Some people want cheaper meat because quality meat you can trust has grown too expensive. Some people want more vegan/vegetarian options bec…

You're repeating the same all-or-nothing reasoning. For many people looking for a substitute, it is close enough. For many vegans, it is an option they like. It doesn't to be every single person eating it at every meal for it to be successful. Other vegetarian protein patty substitutes have done just fine for decades selling to customers who want it. Why does Impossible have to eliminate meat altogether in order to s…

Because profits must go up. Anything else is a failure.

Re: Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

#586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it is the most environmentally friendly option Its not. You need 30 kg of grain or other edible product to make just 1 kg of meat. We are literally turning more food to less food. An unrelated statistic showed that if the world has increased its meat consumption just a little bit more, we would run out of food. The conversion rate is that bad. ... Context: https://www.worldanimalprotection.us/blogs/hidden-driver-fa…

Well that's not true. Most cattle is grass fed for the majority of it's life at which point they will have them eat at feed lots to fatten up. Second, feed lots can use things like by-products of sugar production (molasses, beet pulp pellets, etc...) for feed. These are not human consumable and require no extra food to be grown. I've worked with a company that does over half a billion in revenue on this alone. There…

> Most cattle is grass fed for the majority of it's life

Nope. The majority of cattle industry has transitioned to factory farming and the cattle in factories are fed with edible produce. Not grass. The current meat demand is not something that mere grazing can support.

Even if it was possible to do with mere grazing, that's still not an argument: Grazing is done on land that could be used for many other purposes ranging from residential urbanization to vertical farming. Its not done in the Sahara desert or Siberian taiga where the land is actually not usable for anything else.

Regarding byproducts: Such biological products are still valuable for many other purposes, leaving aside that many of them can be easily made edible through different processes.

It again boils down to this:

We are turning more food into less food. That's not a rational thing to do.

Re: Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meat tastes really good. I think there are many people who want to eat less meat but really enjoy meat. I am one of those people.

Agreed. My family has a long history of cardiovascular problems so I am trying to cut down on red meat myself to possibly extend my life...but dangit I want some chicken fried steak and cheeseburgers. I might use impossible burgers to satiate my cravings in a heart-healthy way, but it just isn't the same.

The problem with red meat isn't meat per se; all meat has saturated fat, some more than others. Reducing LDL cholesterol (reducing CVD risk) means increasing fiber and reducing saturated fat, and if someone chimes in saying that it's not casual, we have an excellent mendelian randomization study that gives us a pretty good link [1]. All plant-based meat alternatives, including cheeses, have high amounts of saturated fat from coconut oil, which isn't very good either.

[1] - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26780009/

Re: Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

#588
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If artificial meat would taste like the real thing and cost less, everyone would want to eat it: Meat eaters and poor people because it costs less, vegans because it tastes good and does not harm anyone and rich people because they feel good when saving the earth.

> Vegans wants meat eaters to eat this thing to prevent animal harm. I’m a vegan of nearly 25 years. My reasons are my own. I don’t care what others eat. Eat a pig, a horse, a dog, cotton candy, pomegranate. To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. But I’m doubtful there are other vegans out there who want carnivores to switch to eating processed foods like this. For my family and…

There are in fact a lot of vegans who do want meat eaters to consume less meat, for the same ethical or environmental reasons we don’t eat meat ourselves. Doesn’t require being an activist to want these products to see more mainstream adoption.

Re: Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

#589
post #582

Anyone who's had Indian food can say that you don't need meat to have a delicious meal. European and American food uses vegetables mostly plain, so of course it's not going to be the same as meat. But try any veg curry and then tell me you'd rather have Beyond Meat.

Right, though the large meat-abstaining culture in India is vegetarian and not vegan. As far as I'm aware, there has not been a traditional vegan culture. It's been made viable owing to supplementation and tangential modern products.

Re: Plant-based meat is turning out to be a flop

#590
Strange choice of headline given the content, but I'm guessing they went link-bait-y to drive clicks.

Nonetheless, I don't know that any of this is unexpected. They're doing about as well as I would have thought they would. Honestly, they have a tricky market in the first place: (a) Vegans that I know[0] don't want a product that makes them "think they're eating meat[1]" and (b) they haven't marketed sufficiently enough to "me".

By "me", I mean, the guy who's only going to buy the meat-free burger if and only if I can't tell the difference between real/fake. I'm also unwilling to buy a fake "raw ground beef" product if I have to substantially change the way I cook it in order to use it.

That gets you through the "I'll try it" gate -- and I ate an Impossible Whopper. I didn't side-by-side it, but I went in expecting I'd be able to tell the difference and really wanted to but I had to concede that it was exactly the "kind-of-shitty-but-you-still-crave-it" Whopper. And that says a lot -- it's a weird flavor and texture (which was slightly different, but it was either unimportant or slightly better).

But then there's the second reason -- if it tastes the same, why am I not eating the regular Whopper? I am not in any way invested in "Animal Rights", I do not have a political or other bone to pick with the meat industry, I don't know enough about the effects of the meat industry, specifically, on climate change so as far as I can tell, this product needs to be one or more of the following: (a) a little (or a lot) cheaper than meat, (b) healthier than meat equivalent to the additional cost, (c) shelf-stable or has an otherwise much longer refrigerator/freezer life than meat.

I found out at Burger King that "it's more expensive" and "tastes the same". I bought it because I read about the company and "I wanted to see if it tasted like a Whopper." On one hand, they nailed marketing it early on. There's no way I would have tried this. I was vegetarian and swore off all forms of plant-based ground beef after throwing up my share of Boca Burgers. Had I not read a bit about the science behind it and "the blood", I wouldn't have been curious enough.

Having now satisfied that curiosity and having even had a good experience, I have never purchased another Impossible Whopper, nor have I even thought about purchasing another plant-based product. I suspect that they may be better for my heart, but they haven't told me[2]. I suspect it's quite a "process" to make and wonder how many ingredients "I can't pronounce and don't understand the origin of" that the product may have. These are the "gut-instinct" judgements that I made with no knowledge, not so much as picking the product up off of the shelf the hundreds of times I've passed it because they haven't given me a good enough reason to get past the price.

Not everybody in this space is failing "me". I probably bought Morningstar Farm's "fake chicken patties" for my family every grocery trip for 10 years. The reason was easy: they were far more consistent and tasted better than processed chicken patties. I only stopped because my kids stopped enjoying chicken patties (buns were going bad too quickly).

And despite the bumps in the road, I don't think any of the bigger brands are really failing ... they need to adjust their messaging a bit, maybe, if they want to extend their market. Or maybe this is the totality of the market for "plant-based meat" at this price point.

[0] I don't know why this phrase is starting to sound like "I have (insert minority) friends" but ... I was (lacto/ovo) vegetarian for a year in my 20s (having nothing to do with animal rights); many friends were vegan.

[1] This topic often came up when discussing Boca Burgers and other veggie burgers; universally they preferred mushroom/eggplant-based patties because they don't taste anything like meat.

[2] OK, so this may be my fault. Maybe they're not reaching me or my family. I've found that living 15 years without Cable Television nor watching any broadcast at home (I stream everything and do not watch sports ... not even the Olympics), having Adblock everywhere and the like means my exposure to ads has resulted in major gaps (gasps of "you've never heard of X" ... and I'll say, the spray-dish-soap was something I wish I had in my life a few years ago, but all in all it's a big plus). But nobody talks about those aspects of the product, either.

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