Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile • Hacker News Board

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#581

Post by necovek » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:21 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #437

yucky wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anybody who thinks parents being prevented from being alone with their own children for 2 weeks due to an unfounded complaint, is far too comfortable with authoritarian government. That sort of thing can cause irreparable harm in the development of the children as well, causing trust issues and fear of government to be deeply ingrained.

I don't think that the ends justify the means, but the outcome of having people have more fear and mistrust of government over-reach is at least a thin silver-lining.

I am afraid that people will mostly have more fear and mistrust of the government, not of their over-reach.

And that fear needs to grow a lot before any action will be taken, so it's still a net loss for the present time.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#582

Post by cbsmith » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:24 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #502

fluidcruft wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When CPS is investigating abuse it seems completely reasonable for them to implement a safety plan to ensure ongoing abuse doesn't occur during the investigation. Far better than yanking the kids into protective custody.

When investigating a report of abuse, that's often reasonable. When the report itself doesn't have any abuse in it, no way.

In this case, the parents were arrested and charged. One could argue wrongfully, but given that's happened, so some kind of short-term mitigation and investigation seems eminently reasonable.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#583

Post by ch4s3 » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:25 PM UTC

woodruffw wrote: post #457

ch4s3 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up on a farm and was out roaming around alone from probably the age of 5 or 6. Kids are pretty capable if you raise them to be a little self reliant and resilient.

Absolutely. I'm singling out suburbia (specifically, suburban car-dependent monoculture) here as the least ideal of the three "spheres."

Yeah I personally view suburbia writ large as a cultural backwater and site of psychologically stultifying sameness. Rural and urban places are endlessly interesting to me.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#584

Post by mwint » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:26 PM UTC

cbsmith wrote: post #556

pessimizer wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CPS does need to investigate. No, they don't. CPS does not need to investigate observations that, even if they are true, imply nothing. That's just sentencing everyone who deviates from orthodoxy to constant investigation. CPS should be investigating claims of something and should have clear standards for those claims instead of being aggressive as a defense. Or you can be a black man with a white stepdaughter, or…

> No, they don't. CPS does not need to investigate observations that, even if they are true, imply nothing. That's just sentencing everyone who deviates from orthodoxy to constant investigation. I think you're taking a slippery slope argument well past the point of reason. For starters, there'd be no reason for constant investigation: once you've completed an investigation, there is no reason to have another investig…

You’re assuming someone in the process is in the position to apply sanity. More likely, they operate as “call-taker puts every call into GovJira, investigators are required to investigate in order to close a GovJira ticket”

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#585

Post by warinukraine » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:27 PM UTC

kgeist wrote: post #254

uoflcards22 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your kid is 3x more likely to be struck by lightning than kidnapped. Literally.

>According to statistics cited by the NCMEC, most missing children are abducted by relatives or parents It's safer to be around strangers than relatives, when it comes to kidnapping.

You're being tricked by sampling bias.

It's safer to be around strangers than relatives in every study's sampling, because most people don't leave their kids with strangers. They spend most of their time with relatives, friends and acquaintances. If they did spend as much time with strangers as with relatives, you'd conclude it's safer to be around relatives.

It's like saying cyanide is safe because most people don't die from cyanide. Yeah, because most people don't take cyanide.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#586

Post by cbsmith » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:31 PM UTC

ticviking wrote: post #471

fluidcruft wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When CPS is investigating abuse it seems completely reasonable for them to implement a safety plan to ensure ongoing abuse doesn't occur during the investigation. Far better than yanking the kids into protective custody.

You seem to be resistant in several threads to the idea that the specific conduct alleged is not on its face abuse. There was never a reason for CPS to even claim they were investigating abuse. I have had jobs that required me to be a mandatory reporter several times in my life, and none of this was even close to evidence of abuse I'd have to report.

The police at the scene arrested and charged. That really seems like reason enough. Really, once the police arrest the parents, you need to get CPS involved anyway, to ensure the kids have some degree of support.

> I have had jobs that required me to be a mandatory reporter several times in my life, and none of this was even close to evidence of abuse I'd have to report.

Mandatory reporting rules are, by design, not intended to include anything and everything that constitutes abuse or neglect.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#587

Post by necovek » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:34 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #512

bhelkey wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Child services had the family agree to a safety plan, which meant Wallace and her husband could not be alone with their kids for even a second. Their mothers—the children's grandmothers—had to visit and trade-off overnight stays in order to guarantee the parents were constantly supervised. After two weeks, child services closed Wallace's case, finding the complaint was unfounded. This is the fault of the nosey neig…

The neighbor bears the least responsibility by a wide margin which is why despite non-zero involvement they really shouldn't be on the same table for discussion. If I ask an entire hospital system to believe in my crazy theory for Leukemia and that leads to patients getting screwed, the discussion shouldn't have the inclination to focus on how one patient communicated their bad medical theory.

It's not a good comparison: everyone has an ability and authority to get police at your door. Police acting on a report and arriving at your doorstep threateningly is not a pleasant experience. And depending on how much it scares you, police might think you are more suspicious instead of less.

This is why false police reports are generally forbidden and can put you, a reporter, in jail.

You shouting out a crazy theory on leukemia will not compel anyone to listen at the hospital. Police are obligated to act out on all reports.

So while they do bear the least responsibility, I disagree it's by a wide margin.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#588

Post by cbsmith » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:36 PM UTC

mwint wrote: post #584

cbsmith wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, they don't. CPS does not need to investigate observations that, even if they are true, imply nothing. That's just sentencing everyone who deviates from orthodoxy to constant investigation. I think you're taking a slippery slope argument well past the point of reason. For starters, there'd be no reason for constant investigation: once you've completed an investigation, there is no reason to have another investig…

You’re assuming someone in the process is in the position to apply sanity. More likely, they operate as “call-taker puts every call into GovJira, investigators are required to investigate in order to close a GovJira ticket”

I didn't assume that. I specifically pointed out that CPS has limited resources. Let's assume the process works in the moronic fashion you're suggesting. Texas CPS has under 10,000 people, of which about a third are investigators, and investigations typically take 2 weeks. Then there's the police/courts/jails that have their own limited resources.

Imagine how that'd work. If you called in a complaint about a ten-year old today, the kid would no longer be a minor by the time the investigation began. ;-)

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#589

Post by cbsmith » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:45 PM UTC

gspencley wrote: post #542

fluidcruft wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When CPS is investigating abuse it seems completely reasonable for them to implement a safety plan to ensure ongoing abuse doesn't occur during the investigation. Far better than yanking the kids into protective custody.

I would agree if these types of pro-active measures required a judge to sign an order given a minimum threshold of evidence. I have heard that it is shockingly easy to get a judge to issue a search warrant at 2 in the morning on a Saturday. I am not a lawyer, but from what I understand even then there is a minimum bar that needs to be met as far as evidence supporting the petition goes: what is the suspected crime? W…

> I would agree if these types of pro-active measures required a judge to sign an order given a minimum threshold of evidence.

Police are empowered to arrest people on the spot. It seems impractical to add a judge to that process. Once someone has been arrested, you need CPS to step in anyway, at which point it seems silly to bar them from investigating.

> Similar, much higher, thresholds need to be met with respects to holding suspects in custody pending a trial.

I mean, she was released on bail, but she was held in custody. So yes, holding them in jail without bail has a higher standard, but you'd really hope the standard would be higher for that.

> Under no circumstances should any other government agencies be able to compel anything from anyone "just because." That's what the courts exist for.

That seems like a broad and vague statement. In fairness, the parents aren't obligated to do anything, but if they don't, then the courts would get far more involved.

Re: Mom handcuffed, jailed for 8-year-old son walking half a mile

#590

Post by thomastjeffery » Wed, Nov 16, 2022, 10:46 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #227

nineplay wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I write software, I know that users will do dumb things and it is my responsibility to write my code in such a way that they can cause no damage. The legal system should have similar responsibilities. If citizens can report crimes, some citizens will incorrectly report non-crimes. If the legal system can't handle that, the that is entirely the fault of the legal system.

"Any proposal must be viewed as follows. Do not pay overly much attention to the benefits that might be delivered were the law in question to be properly enforced, rather one needs to consider the harm done by the improper enforcement of this particular piece of legislation, whatever it might be." -Lyndon B. Johnson

That puts the onus on solving this problem entirely into the legislative branch.

The executive and judicial branches hold equal responsibility to this problem. Why not include them in the solution?