California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide • Hacker News Board

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#581

Post by Behemoth66 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 12:58 PM UTC

josefx wrote: post #551

anchpop wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an informal study done in the early 20th century, where a superintendent decided he didn’t think math was that useful and told the 4 poorest elementary schools in his district to stop teaching it. (He chose the poorest schools because he knew the parents wouldn’t put up as much of a fuss as at the wealthier schools.) They still taught how to count, read clocks, and make change, but besides that they had no…

> The result was that, despite lacking 6 years of formal math education, the students in that district were only one year behind the other students when they went to junior high. If it is anything like German math education back when I was in school a lot of the early things are simplified to an insane extreme and either have to be revisited later or are completely replaced with a better approach. I think we went thr…

In my experience I didn’t do math at all between grade 6-12. At the community college I obviously had to take some elementary courses but I went from elementary to linear algebra/calc2 within a year and a half.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#582

Post by foxhop » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:01 PM UTC

We have observed that physical distancing children hurt a lot of children. It was a sacrifical experiment to try to save the elderly and weak.

When the virus leaked from the Wuhan laboratory and spread across the globe in a matter of months, we knew even then that children are not really at risk of dying from sars-cov-2.

Seems like the correct course of action for the times is to take education out of the hands of government.

I do not believe children should be left behind, but the dumbing down of society isn't going to work. Seems like a segment ripe for complete market disruption.

My 5th grader is learning algebra and we support him at home.

Naturally we will continue to look for resources for him outside of public indoctrination. Perhaps we will see countless real schools being formed across the nation.

I learned almost all I know from the Internet over my 36 years. If more injection mandates occur, especially for children in my region, I will pull my children out of government school.

In 2020 we did distance learning and my children thrived while so many another's back tracked regarding test scores.

Our children thrived because my wife and I work from home. They thrived because life at home, while not structured like school, is an on going homeschool-like experience.

I'm so grateful to have been able to see my children thrive in these times.

We have had a lot of set backs as a society but we will continue to rebuild, repair, and grow!

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#583

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:04 PM UTC

xyzzy21 wrote: post #568

gumby wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

Exactly. The thing is that you have to adjust curriculum to the developmental stage of the INDIVIDUAL child. Teaching someone too early only wastes the time, resources and money of that teaching. Too late and you lose future options. I didn't learn to read until 1st grade but many of my peers learned in kindergarten. Individuals do NOT all reach the same learning readiness phase at the same time or same age (two diff…

[deleted]

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#584

Post by watwut » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:07 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #577

watwut wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just "strange" that this is only done for academics, but never for athletics. Because we don't teach athletics at all. PE is not even trying.

We do teach athletics, but not as classes in schools. If you want your kid to learn how to play baseball, you sign them up for little league. Similarly for other sports. Coaches teach them how to play the sport.

Competitive clubs kick out (directly or indirectly) kids who don't do well instead of really attempting to teach them.

Especially in teams sports, if you want the kid to learn soccer/basketball/whatever and the kid is not a talent meant to win competition, coaches wont spend much time teaching the kid. You may pay private lessons or something.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#585

Post by syshum » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:07 PM UTC

gumby wrote: post #502

userbinator wrote: post #451

I'm perpetually perplexed at why some people seem to think that lowering the standards is going to help anyone. Do they not realise the source of all scientific and technical advancement is really the result of a minority of high achievers, and that by trying to "flatten" this inequality and effectively make everyone equally stupid, they are also going to be affected negatively? applies social justice principles to m…

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

The German System is also groups children based on their performance, not their age

That is the largest problem with American schooling, is we try to keep all kids in a chronological age based system, instead of a skills based system.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#586

Post by nivenkos » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

gpm wrote: post #354

Aerroon wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, the basics of algebra are already taught in first grade (or whenever you learn arithmetic). Kids at that age won't have questions such as x + 3 = 7 Instead, they will get questions such as __ + 3 = 7 They might not formally learn it, but they'll learn the patterns that they will eventually apply in algebra.

And if we were any good at teaching math we would just naturally go with it from there, "algebra" wouldn't even be a subject, it would just be something you do by default as teachers first replaced _ with x (hopefully before you even got too used to _), and then started making the equations gradually more complex. "Solving linear equations with multiple variables", "solving quadratic equations", "solving polynomials"…

Yeah, I remember "learning" indices and logarithms at ~12 years old, using it for hacking video games (i.e. calculating the packet sizes, and bytes to bits, etc.) - then when we had to cover it in school it was super easy and relatable.

Ideally everything would be taught this way, like actually doing interesting things rather than just remembering things from textbooks.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#587

Post by gruez » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:12 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #503

rahimnathwani wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the issue with a teacher that is forced to teach a class of 25 students is very obvious" It's not obvious to the authors of the California Math Framework, who believe that: - we should sort kids into classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable - every child should be taught grade-level material (no matter how far behind, or far ahead, they may be) - teachers are capable of successfully…

>we should sort kids into classes purely by age, and that any other method of sorting is inequitable Can you maybe explain to a non US person why a system merit based is not used(or if it was used in the past was dropped) , I understand there are limitation with this system, I will describe next: 1 there is national/state level exam with super strong security to prevent cheating 2 highschool/universities will be plac…

Sounds like china's gaokao? It might be mericratic, but it's also very high stakes and just leads to your entire high school being devoted to test cramming.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#588

Post by gruez » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

xyzzy21 wrote: post #568

gumby wrote: post #502

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you invert your thesis. Sooner doesn’t necessarily imply “higher standard”: 1 - American school teach the alphabet before grade 1, and push kids to read early. German schools don’t even teach the alphabet until grade 1' yet by the end of that year the reading level of the kids is the same as US kids at the end of grade 1, or better. German Pädagogin justify this by saying there is some neural development issu…

Exactly. The thing is that you have to adjust curriculum to the developmental stage of the INDIVIDUAL child. Teaching someone too early only wastes the time, resources and money of that teaching. Too late and you lose future options. I didn't learn to read until 1st grade but many of my peers learned in kindergarten. Individuals do NOT all reach the same learning readiness phase at the same time or same age (two diff…

>The thing is that you have to adjust curriculum to the developmental stage of the INDIVIDUAL child.

While I agree with this, I suspect the social winds that led to this change, wouldn't put us on the path of creating individualized curriculum like you wanted. As gp mentioned, this change was motivated by social justice, and the same movement has called for getting rid of AP or other advanced material classes on the basis they're discriminatory (blacks/hispanics are underrepresented in them). I remembered a school district doing this sort of thing, but I can't find the link right now. That said, I did find a link of an entire province (!) dropping advanced classes under similar justifications: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-ontario-to-en...

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#589

Post by jeroenhd » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

kccqzy wrote: post #144

fsn4dN69ey wrote: post #28

My parents introduced it to me at home around 4th-5th grade? So I was ~9-10yo? Not sure why delaying it will help, if anything the earlier the better. Everything I hear about "equity in education" seems to be making it worse, but more equally I guess. Like another poster already mentioned, reminds me of the Harrison Bergeron story by Vonnegut - seems like we are rapidly approaching that point. http://www.tnellen.com/…

My parents introduced algebra to me in third grade. It took me a long time in third grade to get it, so much so that I was a little bit afraid of algebra though certainly I didn't admit it to my parents. Fast forward a few years in school when the teacher introduced algebra in class (maybe sixth grade?), everything suddenly clicked, and I pretty much got the highest grade for several months straight because I learned…

My takeaway from your anecdote is completely different: when exactly a school introduces concepts doesn't matter as much as the stimulation a child can receive outside school.

In my experience, kids whose parents help teach concepts and don't just leave things up to school generally end up with an advantage. Kids love learning from their parents and other loved ones, but school is generally regarded as sort of a chore even if it does bring friends and playtime. A great many parents simply don't have the time or energy left after their day job to support their children the same way others can. Kids whose parents often read to (and with) have a noticeable advantage in many school settings, and you can't substitute that for all students by just cramming in more reading time in their busy school schedules.

Kids have a finite time they spend in school. You can shuffle the time they spend around all you want, but in the end every kid requires a certain amount of time to grasp a certain context. That time may differ when kids get older or younger, but the required time spent on learning won't suddenly change.

Re: California moves to recommend delaying algebra to 9th grade statewide

#590

Post by avs733 » Wed, Nov 24, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

moksly wrote: post #212

I’m Danish and not at all interested in the politics of it, but there can be a case for teaching algebra late. We do it in Denmark, because it’s the subject children have the hardest time learning, and having too many of them fail too early kills their interest in math. We still teach algebra in grade 7-9, but we’ve gone through the social experiments of teaching it at different ages, and have lost entire generations…

Largely because American's believe they understand the educational process (largely based on their own anecdotes) better than experts.

The particular reason people struggle with algebra is because it is one of the first fundamentally abstractionist topics taught in schools. There is a huge cognitive development and experiential component.

Delaying teaching algebra makes cognitive developmental sense, but it is also inherently intertwined with with race, class, and gender for a bunch of reasons that get a lot of people really angry.