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Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

digitalrightswatch.org.au

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Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#581

Post by eru »

BoxOfRain wrote: post #545
eru wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So your points arethat “some people like authoritarian measures” and [...] Well, that's how democracy is supposed to work, ain't it?

This is why I’m an anti-authoritarian first and a democrat second. Civil liberties are more important than democracy, they’re worth too much to let the masses throw them in the bin at the first scent of fear.

Same for me. I'd like to see many more small countries and city states. Or at least people taking federalism and subsidiarity serious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity

That's because people seem to be much more reasonable when voting with their feet and wallets, then when voting at the polling booth. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_the_Rational_Voter for some background.)

Eg in a US context, there's no reason at all why they need to have a federal minimum wage as far as I can tell.

Different people have different opinions on how minimum wage works, if at all, but from what I can tell minimum wage is an issue that can be done at state or even municipality level only. There's no need to have federal uniformity here.

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#582

Post by Nursie »

ud_0 wrote: post #577
Nursie wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about taking a nap, taking a bath, cooking, etc.? If you fail to check in, they try again a bit later on, if you fail again it falls back to the non app-enabled method of a police check at your home. The app is voluntary and allows you to be at home rather than in a facility, and to not have random police checks. It's a convenience, not an imposition. > Many other countries trust their citizens enough that suc…

Hang on, the 15 minute interval requires constant human action, it's not enough that the phone itself is reachable? How does that even work? If that's true (which is sincerely hope it's not) being woken up every 15 minutes during the night for two weeks constitutes torture under most definitions.

It goes off once or twice a day, and you have 15 minutes to check in once it does. If you miss one, it'll try again a bit later. If you miss the retry, the police visit to check you're home.

It's not checking every 15 minutes!

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#583

Post by MomoXenosaga »

gambiting wrote: post #542
zarzavat wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In some like the UK, that trust was misplaced, and compliance with isolation rules was under 50%. More like, people in the UK more correctly assessed the risk of COVID. While is a dangerous disease, it's not so dangerous that it is worth giving up all of your civil rights to avoid it. In Australia the cure seems to be worse than the disease.

I've had to do a 14 day quarantine in the UK at home, and frankly, it was a bit of a joke. Literally no one has ever checked we were actually at home, the amount of trust in the population is insane over here. We actually stayed at home the entire time, but I know people who didn't, they had to go to work to make a living and the fine was like a £100. In contrast, in Poland if you are told to quarantine you will get…

Rather have the country focus on a mass vaccination drive than trying to do a full China style lockdown.

In hindsight the unlimited money spent on healthcare and a collective willingness to take the corona pill works better than whatever Australia is trying to do.

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#584

Post by Nursie »

chitowneats wrote: post #580
Nursie wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll say what I said on the other thread - If you want to present an argument against quarantine being needed or warranted, please go ahead. Checking in on the app is the least intrusive of the three options - quarantine under guard (usually in a hotel, like the one I'm in right now), quarantine at home with police visits tio ensure compliance, or quarantine at home checking in to the app once or twice a day. In this…

How did Australians become like this? In my imagination, my American ancestors were quite similar to yours. And yet...

Become like what? Do you have an argument against quarantine? Would tens of thousands of deaths been better than asking travellers to check in for a couple of weeks on arrival, during a pandemic?

I’m really not sure what point you’re trying to make.

I'm British by the way. The UK also has guarded quarantine centres in hotels for people coming in from what it considers “red zones”

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#585

Post by chitowneats »

Nursie wrote: post #584
chitowneats wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did Australians become like this? In my imagination, my American ancestors were quite similar to yours. And yet...

Become like what? Do you have an argument against quarantine? Would tens of thousands of deaths been better than asking travellers to check in for a couple of weeks on arrival, during a pandemic? I’m really not sure what point you’re trying to make. I'm British by the way. The UK also has guarded quarantine centres in hotels for people coming in from what it considers “red zones”

Quarantine for what? That's what you do with sick people. Whatever is going on in Australia has long ago left the realm of sane quarantine procedure. It will be 2022 soon, and the Australians are trying to prevent interstate spread of COVID-19. It's madness.

Responding to your edit: still madness

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#586

Post by smcleod »

sails wrote: post #570
smcleod wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience New Zealand is more different from Australia than a lot of Australians seem to assume. Generally speaking New Zealand is far more socially liberal than Australia, however there are greater financial / job opportunities in Australia due to it's size. In New Zealand you're less likely to own a fancy new car or have has many expensive possessions but to me at least it didn't feel like you "need" them as…

South Africans moving to NZ often mention the "tall poppy syndrome" in NZ. Do you feel like that is a fair comment? This comment reminded me of the concept: > In New Zealand you're less likely to own a fancy new car or have has many expensive possessions but to me at least it didn't feel like you "need" them as much as in Australia. [] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tall_poppy_syndrome

Yeah it absolutely is but it's also simply part of New Zealand culture / identity to try to be humble

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#587

Post by abrazame »

siquick wrote: post #37

I've lived in Australia for 10 years and really considering my familys future in this country. We are sleep-walking towards a very average future. An undiversified export economy, out of control house prices, a job-market primarily focused on two cities, a government intent on selling all public assets, very limited political interest in positive climate policies. The latter is simply addressed with "technology will…

You're not the only one. Reading the news, I feel like a stranger in my own country. Australians don't share the values I thought we did.

I'm leaving early next year. A surprising number of my friends are planning to leave soon too, particularly the highly skilled and employable ones.

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#588

Post by calsy »

jezzzabell wrote: post #550
zarzavat wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In some like the UK, that trust was misplaced, and compliance with isolation rules was under 50%. More like, people in the UK more correctly assessed the risk of COVID. While is a dangerous disease, it's not so dangerous that it is worth giving up all of your civil rights to avoid it. In Australia the cure seems to be worse than the disease.

UK Covid deaths 133,000 vs Australia Covid deaths 1054. That's some cold-blooded calculus to say that Australia would have been better off with another 50,000 people dead rather than having some restrictions in place while they wait for vaccination targets to be reached.

How many will die from the economic fallout and how who will pay for this insane government debt accumulated over the last 2 years. The kids, thats who, the kids who don't get a vaccine and get the privilege of paying the bill for us to sit at home.

What happens to a country that stops people working and starts living on the government credit card? It's all great now when everything is paid in debt. What happens to health, education and infrastructure? What happens to peoples wellbeing and prosperity in the future? Australia's health care system was already at breaking point pre covid. Education was already at breaking point pre covid. They bullshit us that the numbers are fine, and being the fools we are we believe them even though it makes no logical sense. How will people work and pay tax when there are no jobs? How many will die you think?

Covid is not the only thing that can kill you. Poverty has killed infinitely more.

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#589

Post by strangeattractr »

Nursie wrote: post #536
zarzavat wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In some like the UK, that trust was misplaced, and compliance with isolation rules was under 50%. More like, people in the UK more correctly assessed the risk of COVID. While is a dangerous disease, it's not so dangerous that it is worth giving up all of your civil rights to avoid it. In Australia the cure seems to be worse than the disease.

Who's given up "all their civil rights" ? That seems like a massive hyperbole. In WA, there are no lockdowns or any real coronavirus restrictions once you're in. Looks good to me. Might want to compare those death rates too.

I live in Victoria. We have certainly given up all of our freedom. Our Premier has suspended parliament and now rules by decree. Citing fabled 'health advice', which is never made public nor provided when queried, to justify anything he does. That's why we have a 9PM curfew that has done nothing to stem the spread, punitive 'alchohol must be drunk through a mask' rules and playground closures. Those were not legitimate public health measures, but punishments for Victorians risking his re-election strategy of 'beating the virus' after spending the weekend outside in the sunshine.

Police harass citizens for the crime of taking a rest on a park bench while on their 1 hour of allowed outside time per day. I have friends who have been unable to leave the country to see dying parents. I have had friends unable to travel interstate to see their dying parents. My own grandmother died in our lockdown so the last 12 months of her life were spent locked in her own home.

This is not a successful strategy, and anybody reading Australia's low deaths and case numbers need to realise this. We have myopic politicians who are suffering from an obsession with a particular metric, neglecting everything else enabled by a population of unthinking zealots who genuinely believe a single death is a policy failure.

Locking down this severely is neither clever nor demonstrates a particularly high level of consideration. It is the most blunt and basic response to the virus and it's only possible in a country of docile livestock who are content to cede every right if the person they're ceding it to promises it will make them safer from a virus, or in the case of these new national 'security' measures pedophiles or terrorists.

Re: Australia’s new mass surveillance mandate

#590

Post by slowmotiony »

jezzzabell wrote: post #551
slowmotiony wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The phone check in thing is for enforcing the two weeks home quarantine for returned travelers and close contacts of confirmed cases. So the government can effectively just inprison you in your own house, with no proof, no recourse and no due process, because they suspect you were near some guy at some particular time some days ago. They don't even ask to get tested first! How can people on hacker news of all place…

When the alternative is thousands and thousands of deaths, most of us are willing to temporarily give up a bit of civil liberty.

Well, I hope you won't be regretting it soon when you find out it's not temporary.
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