A generation of American men give up on college • Hacker News Board

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#581

Post by temp10298385 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

spaceflunky wrote: post #531

temp10298385 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not necessarily agree with the original post’s statement but this response seems confused to me. Few female applicants to trade schools is consistent with the original statement. If it is societally unacceptable for a woman to be a plumber then I would expect women to act as any rational agent and factor this in when planning their future career.

You’re just infantilizing women by blaming every outcome on “society”. I fully believe women are capable of making their own decisions and there’s no “cabal of men” holding them back from unclogging toilets.

I would argue that I’m neither infantilizing women nor blaming every outcome on society. I never mentioned a cabal of men. It seems you are reading in many themes that are not present in my comment.

I believe that norms shape behaviour, that is the extent of my claim.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#582

Post by approxim8ion » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

inkblotuniverse wrote: post #522

approxim8ion wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>honestly deep down most guys dont want an over educated achiever wife. Why not?

Men want to be wanted, and women generally don't want to be with a lower-status man than themselves. What proportion of women tend to date men who earn less than them, are shorter than them, have a lesser degree than them? Not a very big one, and men know it, so they steer clear of those women. Similarly, most men prefer to date women shorter than them, who earn less than them, etc. Why? I'd guess because most men li…

This all seems horribly insecure. I refuse to partake in it as a man.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#583

Post by temp10298385 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

adamrezich wrote: post #101

temp10298385 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not necessarily agree with the original post’s statement but this response seems confused to me. Few female applicants to trade schools is consistent with the original statement. If it is societally unacceptable for a woman to be a plumber then I would expect women to act as any rational agent and factor this in when planning their future career.

"societal unacceptability" is only one factor. personal choice is another. there's no reason to assume that gender disparities in a given field or trade are solely the result of the existence of the former.

I’m in agreement here.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#584

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #360

Great news, the concept that you need college to succeed was one of the greatest lies told to my generation. Pleased the next generation is waking up. End of the day if the loan can't be written off, if the loan is just handed out to 18 year olds and has almost no limit then the organization that asks for the loan will inevitably balloon out of all proportion and no longer be reflective at all of the value you get ba…

You're conflating college with student loans. Not everyone who goes to college comes out with tons, or even any debt. Additionally, federal loans for undergraduate degrees are capped (to ~$35kish right now). It is graduate school where people end up with six-figures of high interest debt, as graduate loans are unlimited.

You don't need to go to college to be successful, but the data speaks for itself. College graduates have always, on average, earned more and enjoyed significantly lower unemployment. Even if that weren't the case, the fact that college-level jobs are easier on the body and people can generally do them well for 20+ years longer is a huge benefit.

I was raised by two blue collar people and my parents were big on college. My father worked as an electrician and even by the time I was 16, his body was starting to give out. He's basically unable to ply his trade at this point due to several complications related to his career, and works a near-minimum wage office job now. I'm sure he would gladly trade half a years salary when he was 18 to get an additional 20 high-earning working years.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#585

Post by tablespoon » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #113

COVID has accelerated this big time. Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? It makes no rational sense. The moment that a serious, legitimate credential system appears, every average university will disappear overnight. We'll be left with an oligarch class that attends the…

> COVID has accelerated this big time. Why spend $5,000 a semester to watch a Zoom lecture from an average professor when you can open YouTube in a new tab and see a world-class professor share the same information for free? It makes no rational sense.

I don't get that line of thinking:

1. Education isn't a passive lecture-consumption activity. A "world-class professor" who put a lecture on youtube is going to have exactly zero time to talk to you as a student.

2. There's probably not that much difference between the teaching ability of a "world-class professor" and your "average" good professor. That's especially true for undergrad subjects.

I think you're assuming a false equivalency, akin to "why have parents when you can watch videos made by the best parents in the world on television?" The tech version may have many similarities, but it's not equivalent.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#586

Post by temp10298385 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

CountDrewku wrote: post #459

temp10298385 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not necessarily agree with the original post’s statement but this response seems confused to me. Few female applicants to trade schools is consistent with the original statement. If it is societally unacceptable for a woman to be a plumber then I would expect women to act as any rational agent and factor this in when planning their future career.

It's socially unacceptable for a lot of men to be in trades as well, especially if you factor in family background. Let me know what school promotes trades as a good alternative to traditional education? It's almost always looked at as the options for "stupid" people. I don't think your anecdote holds up at all. It seems fare more likely that women in general just do not want physical labor jobs.

I don’t know what anecdote you are referring to, I did not mention one. I did not even make a statement of agreement or disagreement with the original comment. I just pointed out that I did not see a logical inconsistency.

As for your claim that higher class males avoid trades: yes of course. That is actually a great example of what I mean. People factor in social norms in their decision making, be it male or female.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#587

Post by dehrmann » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

I'll repeat what tech companies love to say about hiring underrepresented classes: it's a pipeline problem. Because of a combination of social reasons, maturity, curricula, and pedagogy, men don't perform as well as women academically. Look at the graph on the top of this[1]. Men have lower GPAs in every subject. It's not surprising that leads to fewer going to college and fewer graduating.

1: https://www.act.org/content/dam/act/unsecured/documents/Info...

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#588

Post by happythen » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

dnissley wrote: post #553

happythen wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was young once, and I am white. Yea sure, I understand it. And this is no way new, I had plenty of other white people feeling sorry for me because, "the country is being taken from the white man". That is ooooold, old, old. Fear based racism been around. But to your weak sauce point, some folks are just going to have a hard go at life, but is it easier being white through life, no matter what? Yea, for sure. No one…

My observations are not racist, or rooted in fear. They are, however, rooted in compassion for my fellow human beings who find themselves in the crosshairs of reactionary political ideologies, even if they wear labels like "progressive", "feminist", or "anti-racist". I'm mixed so I can generally wriggle out of such accusations by playing the race card. The only situation I ever feel good about doing so are ones like…

> crosshairs of reactionary political ideologies

You feel sorry for young white men because they have to deal with politics? "Ferrari owners pay an unfair amount of car insurance."

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#589

Post by poopypoopington » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

Grakel wrote: post #526

ashtonkem wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Great news, the concept that you need college to succeed was one of the greatest lies told to my generation. I guess it means what you mean by “succeed”. Going to college is and always has been a reliable way towards earning more money[0]. The issue isn’t that college doesn’t work, the issue is that it’s basically an asset bubble of sorts and the cost exceeded its value. If huge chunks of future generations skip co…

Everyone going to college has turned it into high school- in every metric. I'm a professor, and college is a lifestyle, the classes are a part time job, and there is greatly reduced academic rigor and seriousness. At some age, general education should become a personal journey, or soon we'll have PhDs in general studies and everyone will need one.

This is a vastly overgeneralized statement. Where I went to college [in the US] was much more than a "part time job" and academic rigor was incredibly high. It was not uncommon for students to work 60-80 hours a week.

Re: A generation of American men give up on college

#590

Post by mywittyname » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 3:59 PM UTC

gamechangr wrote: post #550

the_only_law wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and in your late teens and early 20's you'll make a lot more than most college grads. I question even this. I live in an area of the US without a strong union culture, and known a lot of people in the trades and it doesn’t seem uncommon to see job postings for X apprentice starting at $13-$15 and hour. I could get close to that at a shitty gas station clerk job.

Isn't "apprentice" like an intern. Just the first 1-2 years of on the job training until the wage goes up? I have a cousin he started as an electrician making $18 an hour as an apprentice. He started making six figures 4 years into the job. Granted he works quite a bit.

It's a feast or famine industry. It's been a feast for a while, and a lot of people who are relatively new to the industry haven't experienced a famine.

My father is/was an electrician and 2008 decimated the industry. He was de facto laid off and worked part time for the better part of three years after. Of course, today there's tons of work and no one to do it. Any young'uns who came in between like 2002-2008 didn't make it through the GFC and switched careers, and the old-timers who weathered the storm don't have enough juice left to work the insane hours.