If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job? • Hacker News Board

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#581

Post by mikepurvis » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 3:12 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #354

mikepurvis wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood the heavy emphasis on in-interview coding or brain teasers. To the extent that I've participated in the hiring process (both as an IC and a manager), 80% of the interview is assessing culture/personality/ethic fit; that is, the basic "do I want to work with this person" question. The technical competence check is all retrospective, hearing them talk about prior projects and what the design and i…

> I've never understood the heavy emphasis on in-interview coding or brain teasers. Here's why https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

I guess, but I would hope that kind of thing could/would be smoked out in the course of a discussion following these kinds of prompts:

- Tell us about the approach you took with the take-home coding challenge. Why did you break up the functionality in the way that you did (modules/classes/functions)? What kinds of constraints or requirements would cause you to make a different call here?

- Tell us a debugging war story. What was the bug, how did you discover it and come to eventually understand the root cause? Any challenges with reproduction? What steps were taken to prevent it from happening again?

- Pick a feature of XXX programming language and explain how it contrasts with approaches taken in other languages. What do you like about it? It is more productive, efficient, safer, more explicit? What are the tradeoffs and how do you balance these? What kinds of projects would have you prioritizing using a language/ecosystem with this capability?

Someone incapable of writing a fizzbuzz program is not going to be able to bluff their way through an interview like this. Obviously you need to be committed to listening and exploring the space with the other person as opposed to flexing and looking for the "right" answer, but that's just part of the discipline of being a good interviewer and not a jackass.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#582

Post by kodisha » Wed, Sep 01, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #312

kodisha wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure about English, but in my language we have a saying "The fish stinks from the head" I can tell you, with quite substantial sample size from me directly and from people I deeply trust that every time we encountered an interview like this, we later found out that the company culture was really bad. Those are not the kind of people you want to work with.

For clarity, is the "like this" in your comment referring to brain teaser technical one-upmanship interviews, or the less structured style that is focused on getting to know the person and having them describe in their own words the projects in their past?

I was referring to this:

> I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#583

Post by dennis_jeeves » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 1:10 AM UTC

Nbox9 wrote: post #13

I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’. Every technical interview feels like rolling the dice in proving I am a competent developer. Giving me 50 minutes in a high pressure situation in an environment i am unfamiliar with and people I just meet will never product my best results, and then add to the fact that I could…

>I think a lot of this is because our profession does not have an accepted universal bar everyone can jump over to be considered ‘qualified’.

Keeping aside the universal bar, even a firm/interviewer who interviews you will refuse to define a bar( and it's not too difficult to define one) or define a bar that is vague. Defining a bar will means that now they will have to come up with a really good reason to turn down a candidate. IMO they might as well as be honest and do the "culture" fit interview first and as an icing on the cake ask some simple technical questions, once they have settled for a candidate.

It's profession is filled will low status, low self esteem, insecure males, who bolster their ego by making the interview experience for the potential candidate as tough as possible. Not surprisingly the 'victims' (candidates) are also often the "victimizes" (interviewers).

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#584

Post by dennis_jeeves » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 1:13 AM UTC

_f1dq wrote: post #105

jelling wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did an interview with Reddit - whom I hope sees this comment - and they not only provided zero information about the context of the tech interview in advance, or whether it would be one, but also the interview itself was like playing a random version of tech Jeopardy, but without the category columns, and very few of the questions had anything to do with the job I would be doing. I have over 20 years of programming…

I had a similar interview with a different company last year. Three guys and me on a Zoom call with me sharing my screen trying to solve a coding problem that in no way resembled anything I have ever encountered in my 25 year career. When I got stuck they just stared at me. They would not give me any hints whatsoever. They just stared at me. When the interview was over I thought, "Is this how working with these guys…

>We as an industry really REALLY need to figure out a better way of conducting interviews.

Won't happen, because most don't want to figure out a better way. We just have to come to terms with it.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#585

Post by poulsbohemian » Thu, Sep 02, 2021, 5:05 AM UTC

hirvi74 wrote: post #576

poulsbohemian wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My educational background was CS and business, I spent 23 years in a wide range of technical, managerial, and consulting roles, and now I sell real estate in two states (our market spans a state line). Would be happy to chat anytime about career ideas.

That's very kind of you, I think I will take you up on that offer. I've only been in the field for like 5 years as of next month. Do you have a preferred form of contact?

Sure - see my profile.

Re: If software engineering is in demand, why is it so hard to get a job?

#586

Post by WkndTriathlete » Fri, Sep 03, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #581

908B64B197 wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've never understood the heavy emphasis on in-interview coding or brain teasers. Here's why https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

I guess, but I would hope that kind of thing could/would be smoked out in the course of a discussion following these kinds of prompts: - Tell us about the approach you took with the take-home coding challenge. Why did you break up the functionality in the way that you did (modules/classes/functions)? What kinds of constraints or requirements would cause you to make a different call here? - Tell us a debugging war sto…

I have found that a 30-minute discussion on a random variety of technical topics (including questions such as those posted above) is sufficient to determine whether someone has required technical expertise.

Coding exercises entirely miss the point, because writing code is the easy part. The hard part about good software engineering is being able to rapidly acquire problem domain expertise and knowing which engineering design choices enable rapid, scalable, and maintainable development to solve the problem. That's why companies using code exercises to screen candidates are generally not worth the interviewee's time to work for - it indicates that the interviewers don't understand the problem domain, either, and (by extension) that company is mired in mediocrity.

I've had code exercise interviews. I'm quite happy that I have never had to work for one of the companies that used them. I have never given a code exercise interview, and I've been quite pleased with the candidates that have responded and worked with me.