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Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

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Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#581
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of this has to do with how we've been able to drive down agricultural costs by means of automation over the last century which has driven a move away from family farms to larger corporate farms. In 1900, just under 40 percent of the total US population lived on farms, and 60 percent lived in rural areas. Today, the respective figures are only about 1 percent and 20 percent.[1] Sure the coasts are creating more e…

This has also happened to manufacturing and coal mining to a certain extent. But, unlike agriculture, the demand for certain resources like coal is significantly less than it used to be, but people in the affected areas haven't been able to find work in other fields.

Because they're not willing to move.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#582

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> values which are of long standing, still held by a significant fraction of the population, and them disproportionately descended from ancestors who have been American for many generations, are more American values than ones which fail one or more of these criteria So, in an Oregon context, this would mean the values of the Chinook peoples?

Not really, no. For starters, we're talking about Eastern Oregon, so if you wanted to throw a gotcha, you should have gone for the Paiute. America is a nation, and it took its time getting to Oregon. The Chinook were never particularly numerous, nor influential on the values of that nation. That's just a fact. The Iroquois League was more influential, the Founding Fathers were very impressed with their system of gove…

Well, then I'm confused.

You started off saying that it makes sense for these people to say that the government of Idaho upholds American values more than the government of Oregon, because values' 'Americanness' isn't determined by the majority, but rather by appeal to ancestry and tradition.

But apparently the Chinook (or, if you wish, the Paiute), who I would say have superior claim on that front, don't get to wield the mystical power of American Values because they were never numerous, nor influential.

But surely the population of Idaho and eastern Oregon is also not particularly numerous, nor influential.

And the population of Western Oregon also, surely, has some claim to be a "significant fraction of the population", "disproportionately descended from ancestors who have been American for many generations", so surely that means their values are more American values than ones which fail one or more of these criteria?

So I guess I just don't know what gives these people of Eastern Oregon more of a claim to determine whether Idaho or Oregon is 'more aligned' with American Values. Is it because their ancestors have been Americans since the early days of the old West, and they embody the pioneer spirit of the Oregon Territory? So their values are more American.

But it's maybe worth noting that in 1844, while Frederick Douglass was first publishing his slave story, Oregon passed a law that made it illegal for him, or any other freed slave, to set foot in the state. It remained part of the state's constitution through its admission to the US, and long after the 14th amendment made it unconstitutional.

In 1926, thirty years after Frederick Douglass died, a ballot measure to repeal it was finally passed. But 32% of voters voted against it.

Maybe if white supremacy is 'surely' no longer an American value, we shouldn't be looking to the traditional values of Oregonians as a guiding light. They have a bit of a history of being slow to catch on to changes in what are 'surely' American values.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the track record is so poor, and there is such little transparency, that they have no trust whatsoever. The track record of... Medicare? It's one of the most popular programs in government! What you've done is just aborb spin. It's true that these people don't trust "The Government" to provide health care, because their thought leaders (and peers like you) keep telling them that. But then they go and enroll in…

There is no alternative to Medicare given the risk profile for the elderly. It has high approval because there is no other option . It is also not universally accepted- this is only anecdotal, of course, but I had a doctor tell me he didnt accept it because the rates for some procedures worked out to be below the state's hourly minimum wage. Perhaps a better example would be the VA- government run hospitals and cover…

The point is that Medicare is a solid floor of service that we know works. People with good corporate insurance do better. Everyone else either qualifies for Medicare or they do significantly worse.

Virtually all of the putative working class republicans "opposed to government health care" would be better served by Medicare. Period.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4. Safety: Idaho allows forests to be managed to prevent destruction of housing from huge wildfires. I just spent a month in central Oregon and there were proscribed burns going on all over the place. It was the most forest management I've seen in any state.

This is coded language to mean "we can pull resources from federal/state lands but not pay for them".

I thought it was coded language for "we can let logging corporations plunder the forest with no oversight."

Both works to be honest.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#585

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For instance, what basis is there for universal healthcare other than 'we should help each other'? You can't make the argument that it would 'save the government money' to the right ... Something else: It fosters a more competitive work environment, by allowing capable workers to choose the best firms. It also separates health cost, whose administration is expensive for businesses, from working capabilities of empl…

> Something else: It fosters a more competitive work environment, by allowing capable workers to choose the best firms. Do you have data showing that the gains in competitiveness offset productivity losses from higher unemployment? >Finally, anything more than essential coverage could and should still be privatized, and paid for by individuals. Much like today’s life insurance today. e.g., long cancer recovery and ca…

Do you have data showing that universal healthcare leads to higher unemployment?

The difference between essential and non-essential? Why should I have to make that distinction in a forum?

Both private healthcare AND even medicare do this today, to different degrees.

Largely, routine check-ups and preventive care are covered. Emergency visits and triage care used to be covered (and still should be).

Everything else is quite subjective, and cost is a factor.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#587
post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> violent criminals [...] which urban zones produce radically more of That's just not true. A quick google pulls up this visualization from 2017: https://www.santarosa-lawyer.com/united-states-crime-map-201... And you'll note that... there's basically no correlation with urbanity at all. Highly urban states like CT are very peaceful, but so is Idaho (but not Montana, which is pretty bad). Two of the worst states are…

Your analysis lumps all violence equally, and suffers greatly from the variance inherent in reporting of “light” violent the crime. Homicides are much better to look at. There is very little difference between Alaska and New Orleans in their reporting of homicides. And when you judge rural vs urban by homicide rate, urban is much larger. Of the top 10 counties with the highest homicide rate, 4 are major metropolitan…

> Of the top 10 counties with the highest homicide rate, 4 are major metropolitan areas.

Easiest way to tell someone is lying with statistics is when they try to make a point by counting outliers at the edge of the distribution.

I don't see how what you're saying follows at all. It seems just as likely that broad exurban counties are more economically inclusive while urban counties tend to cluster very-poor high crime areas more densely while leaving the safer adjoining suburbs (very much part of the "urban" population under discussion here) in different buckets.

Are "cities" killing more people per capita or not? Seems like that's a simple matter of adding up some numbers, so your attempt to spin here seems a little suspect. Again, my read is that there is almost no correlation at all.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#588
post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, so say that. Or connect them to "American Values" concretely somehow. Because right now they are just saying their opponents are "un-American" which means whatever it needs to mean without actually saying anything of substance.

They put it that way on purpose, it's coded language, full of dog whistles. They don't say the quiet part out loud.

It's amazing how some folk deny what the intention is - I guess the terms provide plausible deniability. Sometimes it's "real Americans" or "middle-class Americans", or "people in the heartland" - we all know which demography you're referring to (and everyone else you're excluding).

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would love to see the data, but from the data I have seen, the data conflict with the popular (populist) narrative. A lot of people in America seem to believe that the hardworking "real Americans" in the middle of the country are subsidizing the poorly-run coastal liberal enclaves. In reality, the money almost always flows in the other direction; taxpayers in cities are subsidizing the rural-dwellers. This has noth…

Those people in the middle of the country believe that if they all quit their jobs and demanded a government-given wage, that the country would starve to death. If all of the people at facebook, google, and twitter quit their jobs, however, all that would really happen would be that the country would get a bit more peaceful. You're talking about how much is taken in taxes. These people are talking about how much is g…

If me and my coworkers stopped working, significant parts of the countries education system and essential services would stop working. I make 16 dollars an hour.

Re: Five Oregon counties vote to leave state, create 'Greater Idaho'

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most folks in Portland, pandemic aside, it’s been life as usual. I have yet to encounter lefties in my SE hood terrorizing anyone. Plenty of Trump caravans last year, waking us up, shooting guns. All from outside the city. Sure violence is up but it’s up all over. A side effect of a nation coddling old wealth, leaving the masses to rot.

Then the media is utterly and in conspiracy theory fashion lying about the situation on a daily basis. I’m not saying that’s not the case, just that it’s not the message the rest of us are getting, maybe and including these counties wanting out.

Of course the media is. They’re in cahoots with the political apparatus to massage public opinion in the direction of more police intervention.

I’d argue it’s not even a conspiracy. They don’t hide it. The public just doesn’t think of it that way.

There’s nothing going on in Portland you can’t find in large cities across the country. 52 homicides in Portland last year. 700+ in Chicago.

But we’re used to hearing about it in Chicago.

The media’s job is to attract viewers. They’ll waste no opportunity to dramatize what is, unfortunately, routine human tragedy to that end.

The US government spent tons of money on propaganda programs during the World Wars and it all made its way to university advertising, journalism, and marketing programs.

I’m not going all deep state since it’s public record. And it’s not as if grandstanding to gain public support is new.

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