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Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

reuters.com

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Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#581

Post by thebean11 »

NationalPark wrote: post #556
thebean11 wrote: post #546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No I don't see the relationship. Let's assume no intrinsic value for the sake of argument. How do you get from there to "additional coins steal market cap from existing coins"? Seems easy to craft some counterexample, like "Doge acts as a marketing campaign for crypto as a whole and will lead to net-inflows to the BTC market".

I'm just describing the plausible argument that the original commenter said didn't exist - to that end, it should be obvious that a bullish investor, who believes crypto is the future of finance, holding a balanced basket of crypto investments, might invest less in any individual coin as more potential successes appear that must be hedged against.

> balanced basket of crypto investments

That's fair, but I doubt it would deviate very much from the top 5-10, and that each of them would have significant differences from each other (ie not carbon copy clones). I would argue that most of the value in those top 5-10 was net-new and not a dilution of Bitcoin.

The notion I'm arguing against is that me creating MyCoolCoinX on the fourth page of coinmarketcap is somehow diluting BTC, any more than some new pink sheet penny stock is diluting AMZN.

Doge is an interesting case, in that it is the same tech as BTC with just some parameter tweaks. My guess is that most Doge investors are newer to the market, and wouldn't have otherwise invested but I could be wrong.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#582

Post by matmatmatmat »

abrahamepton wrote: post #476
pilingual wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This in itself is a meme - "All criticism is ignorance!" No, as I pointed out to the OP I was appreciative of his reasoned criticism because for years the top comments say things like, "Bitcoin is a ponzi; bitcoin is used only for illegal activity; Bitcoin failed." All wrong, and the only way I learned those were wrong was by understanding it and learning from smart people who are involved in the industry. > The tr…

There are serious, devastating critiques of Bitcoin. There are no serious rebuttals to those critiques, but plenty of people "involved in the industry" are making a lot of money from BTC, so it's no surprise they've convinced themselves it's fine. I guess they suckered you in too.

Could you link a few of these? Genuinely interested in reading. Thanks in advance.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#583

Post by usrusr »

inter_netuser wrote: post #523
usrusr wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PS: makes me wonder if we might eventually see something like "tokens not transferred since ${some generous date horizon} will get blacklisted starting ${some era switch date reasonably far into the near future for living address to create a lifesign transcribe}" merged into mainline. Or even "get reissued to miners". If that ever happened it would be at a time when total supply uncertainty would already noticeably i…

Blacklists will be incredibly contentious and will likely never get merged. Even if they do - a fork is guaranteed to happen.

Undoubtedly. But my guess is that the threshold for blacklisting stale addresses would be noticeably lower than the threshold for any blacklisting based on, well, "governance".

You could even conjure up an argument based on block chain "balance of hashrate" security, which I presume is the best type of argument with that audience: "what if, after mining rewards have run out, everybody is just doing value store? No transaction fees for those selfless miners! (will they still be called miners?) One by one they will close their datacenters, difficulty goes down and suddenly the gates are wide open for 51%. Quick! Introduce mandatory keepalive ping transactions or we are doomed!"

Not that I expect this to happen, but I find these musings far more entertaining than the ups and downs of the market.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#584

Post by camgunz »

inter_netuser wrote: post #567
camgunz wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cryptocurrencies do have a couple of extra utilities: - they can be pumped and dumped without state oversight - with the use of a tumbler, you can launder money pretty effectively (in fact we should stop calling them tumblers and start calling them money launderers, that's exactly what they are) It's pretty obvious that this is bad for society. In addition, the transactions are extremely slow and wildly expensive--ev…

Sounds so great, what can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or EU banks, who have nearly failed and had to be bailed out barely a decade ago. Doesn't inspire confidence, tbh.

I think it'd be more productive if you engaged with the substance of what I wrote, rather than engaging in whataboutism with USD/Euro/etc. I'll try and do that here with what you wrote.

> What can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take?

A couple of things about this:

- You can get Dollars/Euros/GBP/RMB.

- Crypto cannot solve the "so you're born in an oppressive or poorly-run state" problem. You've gotta trade the currency you have for crypto, and if that currency isn't good, crypto doesn't help you at all.

- There's really no examples of crypto helping people in oppressive or poorly-run states (Venezuela still has horrendous problems, for example).

- The transaction fees are bad enough in USD, but valued in (say) Bolivars they're prohibitive.

- In particular, Bitcoin is super bad for the planet, and people in oppressive or poorly run states are disproportionately susceptible to ecological disasters and climate change.

> BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or EU banks, who have nearly failed and had to be bailed out barely a decade ago. Doesn't inspire confidence, tbh.

I think you don't mean "accessible", but rather you're saying because banks need bailouts that fiat currency is unworkable? My counterpoint here is mostly what I wrote in my previous post; fiat is superior to crypto in every way, unless you're a criminal.

Furthermore, cryptocurrency systems are vulnerable to a whole class of problems central banking isn't, i.e. someone lost the keys, Sybil attacks, developers making changes that destroy your stake/economy.

There is no recourse for this. Are heads of state supposed to join a Discord channel or w/e and lobby crypto devs?

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#585

Post by inter_netuser »

celticninja wrote: post #576
inter_netuser wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

undercapitalized exchanges? you think they are running on fractional reserve?

That is pretty much the accusation against tether. Most exchanges use it, so rather than the exchanges being knowingly undercapitalized, they are by virtue of using tether. Which is supposed to be 1=1 backed with the $. Which it isnt, and it is not clear how backed it actually is.

They are under regular audit by NY AG. Do you not think they'd be jail by now for fraud?

They don't disclose details, yes. but neither does your bank, really.

Finance tends to be tight-lipped.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#586

Post by ric2b »

imtringued wrote: post #280
Mc_Big_G wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming I care how much something costs in dollars.

If you are a US citizen you will have to pay taxes in dollars.

Dollars are one of the easiest things to buy with Bitcoin, so how is that a problem?

I also need water to live my life, but that doesn't make me feel the need to price everything in gallons of water.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#587

Post by inter_netuser »

camgunz wrote: post #584
inter_netuser wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds so great, what can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? BTC seems a lot more accessible than the great and amazing US or EU banks, who have nearly failed and had to be bailed out barely a decade ago. Doesn't inspire confidence, tbh.

I think it'd be more productive if you engaged with the substance of what I wrote, rather than engaging in whataboutism with USD/Euro/etc. I'll try and do that here with what you wrote. > What can I get for my rapidly depreciating Turkish Lira nobody wants to take? A couple of things about this: - You can get Dollars/Euros/GBP/RMB. - Crypto cannot solve the "so you're born in an oppressive or poorly-run state" proble…

Sadly, you are absolutely uninformed.

1. no, you cant get FX. capital controls.

2. USDC stablecoin actually has explicit sanction exemptions from US Govt to help people in Venezuela. They aren't easy to get at all, but I guess according to USDC does absolutely nothing in Venezuela, so it must've been a waste of effort.

3. transaction fees are measured in milli-cents on Lightning Network. They are also instant. Still Bitcoin, with the same security budget.

4. Why is using renewables super bad for the planet? Either renewables can power the planet and our industries - or they just don't work. Make up your mind.

If you think proof of work is waste and you need to lobby devs - you have literally everything upside down. very unfortunately it's a common situation on this board.

a. Proof of Work exists to remove any subjectivity from consensus. Longest valid chain with most work, period. Subjectivity = politics, and everything that comes with it.

b. devs do not have anywhere as much control as you think, and the ecosystem can trivially eject malicious devs. happened a number of times.

The entire point of Bitcoin is that it is objective and transparent.

As for "criminal" - people commit on average 3 felonies per day: https://ips-dc.org/three-felonies-day/

Everyone is a criminal.

Especially Turks, Venezuelans and Nigerians seeking to escape their broken systems and banks. Must be some savvy criminals - recording their crimes on a globally replicated open ledger, visible to the entire world.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#588

Post by ric2b »

paulpauper wrote: post #399
cableshaft wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're holding as long as most people do index funds (i.e. 5-10+ years), historically you would have been way better off putting that money into bitcoin. Even taking this crash into account, I'm way up on crypto compared to my 401k. Not going to stop putting money into my 401k though, for the sake of diversification.

The bulk of btc gains were from 2010-2013. The cagr of BTC from early 2018 onwards is not that great.

Up 20x since 2018 is not that great?

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#589

Post by inter_netuser »

Grustaf wrote: post #315
midhhhthrow wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where else should people invest their money? Stocks are extremely overvalued According to the buffet ratio And bonds/cash will soon be completely worthless by the time the gov and feds of the world are done with them Real estate is extremely difficult to buy and sell. Execution is hard. There’s a desperate need for a store of value, now more than ever (gov of the world are abandoning their obligation of providing a s…

It's really hard to imagine a WORSE store of value than crypto.

only went up 400% this year. Terrible.

Everyone is wiping their tears with dollar bills right now, very bittersweet.

Re: Crypto crash deepens, stocks slip

#590

Post by celticninja »

inter_netuser wrote: post #585
celticninja wrote: post #576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is pretty much the accusation against tether. Most exchanges use it, so rather than the exchanges being knowingly undercapitalized, they are by virtue of using tether. Which is supposed to be 1=1 backed with the $. Which it isnt, and it is not clear how backed it actually is.

They are under regular audit by NY AG. Do you not think they'd be jail by now for fraud? They don't disclose details, yes. but neither does your bank, really. Finance tends to be tight-lipped.

They always claimed it was backed 1:1 with the US dollar. Then they paid a fine to the NY AG because it was not backed 1:1, and as part of that they had to produce quarterly reports about how it was backed.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/529eb4e6-796...

It still isn't backed 1:1 based in their own admission. This isn't about being tight lipped, this is willfully misleading customers.

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