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Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

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Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#581

Post by lazyasciiart »

kukx wrote: post #476
rbg246 wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitions and I believe another commenter in this thread has defined it very solidly about poverty. There will always be service sector jobs, this is the argument luddites were having in 1815 (I don't want to get into this as it is distracting from my main point). We should be ensuring that anyone putting in 40 hours a week should be able to support a family. The wealth is there to be able to create this…

What does it mean to support a family? Is getting them sheltered, clothed and well fed good enough? I think it is way easier to achieve today than in almost any other time in a human history, even for the low earners. Restaurants are a part of the service sector. A service job does not imply that it is attractive. And they differ in requirements. The well paid ones get more and more complicated and hence, proportiona…

What does it mean to ask questions in bad faith?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#582

Post by monkeycantype »

zizee wrote: post #382

Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? In australia we have a $12.50/hr minimum for 15 year olds. It climbs in increments until about $25/hr. This system allows teenagers to get a foot in the door for low-skilled jobs, and allows adults to get paid a livable wage. The result is that a lot of fast food jobs are performed b…

In Au, current ceo at my work recently complained how frustrating it is having 16 y.o. s manage stores. Hmm wonder how that problem happened?

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#583

Post by Guest42 »

pessimizer wrote: post #529
scrozart wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds exactly like what OP indicated.

A fast food job isn't an apprenticeship. It's just a shitty job. Management of a fast food restaurant takes a bit of generalizable, transferable skill, but there are always going to be an order of magnitude more workers than managers. A job where only 10% of the workers can move up is a dead end job for 90% of them. Every apprentice carpenter can become a carpenter.

Agreed, I think that a number of these jobs provide a fantastic introduction to business process but the resume doesn’t necessarily translate into the opportunities that it could or should depending on a persons aptitude. As such, it becomes necessary to reconfigure resumes in a way that avoids jobs that might seem unwanted and highlights skills that appear more sought after regardless of how much they were tied to a job. I like the phrase resume driven development.

A better path would be for employers to have internal training programs for gaining skills that can help one to climb the career ladder either internally or externally knowing that if a good person leaves that the reputation will attract suitable replacements.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#584

Post by rbg246 »

sokoloff wrote: post #535
rbg246 wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, it's a balancing act. But equally is it ok for people to work hard and long hours and only barely make Or not quite make ends meet? Sorry I should note that I am not saying you are advocating for the above(could be misread).

I guess the question is what do you do when you find people who present with that situation: that they’re perfectly capable to hold down a job but only to create $10/hr of economic value by their labor. If you set the minimum wage at $15/hr and do nothing else, you have made that person worse off than today. Everyone around them now has more money, so everything is becoming more expensive. They now can’t find or keep…

Equally the status quo is not tenable and clearly not the solution.

There are many people coming up with solutions but clearly 'free market' adjustments have failed an increasing number of workers.

But I will disagree with your economic value question, I think service workers are undervalued greatly.

There is a giant disconnect between wage and economic value, the market is terrible at connecting the two.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#585

Post by lanstin »

sokoloff wrote: post #535
rbg246 wrote: post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly, it's a balancing act. But equally is it ok for people to work hard and long hours and only barely make Or not quite make ends meet? Sorry I should note that I am not saying you are advocating for the above(could be misread).

I guess the question is what do you do when you find people who present with that situation: that they’re perfectly capable to hold down a job but only to create $10/hr of economic value by their labor. If you set the minimum wage at $15/hr and do nothing else, you have made that person worse off than today. Everyone around them now has more money, so everything is becoming more expensive. They now can’t find or keep…

Generally the math works the other way. I worked in a Wendy's for a while; I made minimum wage and most of the people made a little bit more. We cleared $30,000 a month profit for the owner ($100K revenue, $70K for expenses including all of our wages). If a company is so inept they can't generate a bit of value from people, then to be frank, as a society we can afford to be without them. Look at the minimum wage as a filter to remove companies that are so unsuccessful, that they disappear before dragging down the citizens.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#586

Post by ramshorns »

frankbreetz wrote: post #473
ramshorns wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying poverty wages is wrong, and child labour is wrong. They don't cancel each other out.

Is a 15-18 year old working fast food child labor?

Not really. I made the comment overly simplistic, probably 15 or 16 is a fine age to be allowed to start working.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#587

Post by a3n »

heavyset_go wrote: post #372
jschveibinz wrote: post #2

This article unfortunately doesn't address the business side of the problem. Fast food restaurants, or place like "Dale's" mentioned in the article, make very little profit. It is most likely below 10%. Here is an estimate: https://www.restaurant365.com/blog/what-is-the-average-profi... . A 10% profit is very modest. That's not the story of the "fat cats getting rich on the back of the workers" that the article is al…

> But watch out for technology and automation...that is the part of the equation that has been "solving" the labor problem for some time now... This claim in particular was examined in studies on minimum wage increases, and found that increases in the minimum wage had no impact on the adoption of automation[1]. [1] https://research.upjohn.org/up_workingpapers/260/

Automation may merely not yet be readily adoptable.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#588

Post by tolbish »

dv_dt wrote: post #560
zizee wrote: post #382

Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? In australia we have a $12.50/hr minimum for 15 year olds. It climbs in increments until about $25/hr. This system allows teenagers to get a foot in the door for low-skilled jobs, and allows adults to get paid a livable wage. The result is that a lot of fast food jobs are performed b…

The average age of a fast food worker is 29.5. https://www.davemanuel.com/2011/04/21/the-average-age-of-a-f...

Is that the mean age or the median age? The article doesn't really provide a source.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#589

Post by NalNezumi »

pessimizer wrote: post #529
scrozart wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds exactly like what OP indicated.

A fast food job isn't an apprenticeship. It's just a shitty job. Management of a fast food restaurant takes a bit of generalizable, transferable skill, but there are always going to be an order of magnitude more workers than managers. A job where only 10% of the workers can move up is a dead end job for 90% of them. Every apprentice carpenter can become a carpenter.

Shitty jobs teaches you one thing or two too. Who's to decide there's nothing to learn from a job, for 100% of people?

I worked as a mailman between 11-13 y.o. It was a shitty job carrying ads and local newspapers weighting as much as you on a bike through hills in -10C snowy north. A shitty job, but I learned a thing or to; planning, discipline and value of money.

Problem is when you're stuck at a shitty job with no option to change/improve at all. I don't see how that's the case for teenagers at entry level job.

Re: Labor shortage or terrible jobs?

#590

Post by Animats »

zizee wrote: post #382

Honest question: why do discussions about minimum wage in the U.S. never propose having teenagers having a different minimum to adults? In australia we have a $12.50/hr minimum for 15 year olds. It climbs in increments until about $25/hr. This system allows teenagers to get a foot in the door for low-skilled jobs, and allows adults to get paid a livable wage. The result is that a lot of fast food jobs are performed b…

The US has that.[1] $4.25/hr for the first 90 days of employment for people 20 and under. McDonalds lobbied for it. It's not used much.

[1] https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/32-minimum-wage...

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