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Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

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Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

#581

Post by stunt »

whobar wrote: post #290
ohthehugemanate wrote: post #199

Just in case you were operating under the illusion that tech giants are run by forward thinking executives who are immune to the usual politics and problems of corporate life. Nope, most of their exec layer is a bunch of people who cut their teeth the industry in the 90's, and are operating within a thick fog of local workplace politics. I guarantee that behind this move is an executive who believes that developers n…

Ever thought that these executives are not as dumb as you think they are, and maybe that they are aware that individual developer productivity may drop, but there are broader benefits to having everyone on site.

But who said the only way to improve productivity is asking people to go back to the office? Maybe they're dumb if they can't find a different solution.

Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

#582

Post by stunt »

ohthehugemanate wrote: post #199

Just in case you were operating under the illusion that tech giants are run by forward thinking executives who are immune to the usual politics and problems of corporate life. Nope, most of their exec layer is a bunch of people who cut their teeth the industry in the 90's, and are operating within a thick fog of local workplace politics. I guarantee that behind this move is an executive who believes that developers n…

The big exec that was behind building office space needs to show how successful their initiatives are. And they have enough leverage and influence to move you back on site.

Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

#583

Post by nullsense »

wccrawford wrote: post #399
nullsense wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently in a 2 days WFH scenario atm where everyone just picks whatever random days they want. I'm not a fan. There's almost no consistency even though people set which days they are at home. Hard to describe, but it's mentally impossible to keep track of when starting a meeting if everyone is in the meeting who is supposed to be because I can't keep track of everyone's days, so I don't know if they're just not on…

I'm sure that's confusing, but it occurs to me that it'd be a lot less confusing if you just assumed that anyone who is late needs a ping, even if they haven't actually forgotten. Even if they're only late by 1 second. Just ping them. If they're grabbing a coffee, they're still late. Non-emergency reasons are not an excuse to hold everyone else up.

I see that behaviour starting to emerge, but you're right. I think this should just become the M.O.

Maybe also by waiting to start the meeting we're enabling it all too?

I find it all too much to keep track of, so perhaps simplifying it to "meeting starts at X, be there or be square" is all that's needed and behaviour will adjust accordingly?

Food for thought.

I've seen some comments that WFH and it's variations (full remote vs partial) are a skill like anything else and need to be developed. I'm not strictly speaking a fan of it all really, but that's just me, and I think the "more productive vs less productive" debate is actually a ruse and that the real argument we're all getting into is "this makes me feel better vs this makes me feel worse" which you simply can't logic your way out of, so I get that it truly does suit some people.

I think I just need to take the mindset that it's a skill I need to develop a little further and some of my gripes with it will ease or melt away.

Seems like, at least in my neck of the woods, 2 days WFH is becoming a standard benefit touted by companies to attract candidates now.

Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

#584

Post by layoutIfNeeded »

darawk wrote: post #292
raducu wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, no, their primary concern is their own interest. A lot of politics gets much harder in remote work, and this is what these people are best at. It's not productivity, it's politics that is much harder to do when remote working.

You think that executives are forcing developers to come into the office so that they can play politics with their subordinates?

Yes.

Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

#585

Post by RestlessMind »

varispeed wrote: post #352
beforeolives wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just about socializing or climbing the ladder - you need to communicate with other people to get stuff done. Even if you only care about technical contribution and getting work done, if you aren't in the office and everyone else is, you'll have a difficult time.

Could you explain why? Everyone is on Slack or Teams or even Discord and always available to talk during "office" hours.

If half the team is in office and half is remote on Slack, then the communication throughout (both useful and pointless) is much higher among the in person. Some simple examples:

1) quick clarification for a technical question - easier to turn back and ask your colleague

2) design minutiae which you remember after a 30/60min meeting is over - very easy to grab your coworkers in hallways or by watercooler and nail down

3) coming across interesting conversations among your colleagues by just being in proximity - not possible when you have to schedule a 30min chat for that

4) reading body language to know whether your colleague is stressed or relaxed or happy or sad - helps tailor your response which improves the communication

I haven't even delved into the timezone issue yet, which matters a lot even between colleagues on East vs West coast (let alone Europe or Asia). Meetings before 8:30am PT? PT people would still be waking up or dropping kids to school. 9-10am PT? Time for people in ET to have their lunch. 12-1pm PT? Lunch time for PT people. After 2:30pm PT? ET guys are already out for the day.

Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

#586

Post by RestlessMind »

dudul wrote: post #413
beforeolives wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a hybrid model the people who choose to be remote are damaging their own impact and career development. That's a tradeoff they're free to make if they want but it's the reason why I think hybrid models won't last for too long.

I see this claim made very often on HN. Is there any data to back it up?

Let's say ideal data exists in some hypothetical company which will convince you. What would it look like? Asking because this is an area where it will be impossible to get meaningful data unless a big enough company runs an A/B test over a long period of time to measure the impact on career development.

Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

#587

Post by RestlessMind »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #421
bumbada wrote: post #334

I have been working remotely for decades. Most people can't work remotely and productively because they are not trained to do so. E.g. You are in your office (inside your home) and your wife, your dog or child enters it demanding you do some kind of non important issue right now, distracting you from your work.You need to be trained to not them let them distract you. The people living in your house need to be trained…

This chestnut 'home has too many distractions' line is getting old. Work has equivalent distractions, and those people actually get paid to distract you. It takes time management wherever you sit your butt.

Do you live in the US suburbia? Because that is a unique place in the world which is built to support big houses for middle class people, where everyone can have a room for their home-office for cheap.

Most of the world is not like that. For example[1], avg apartment size in Bangalore 1260 sqft and in Mumbai is 700 sqft. Most of the knowledge workers live in dense cities around the world and it is not feasible for them to move to the US suburbia.

[1] https://realty.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/residential...

Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

#588

Post by eudajmonia »

levosmetalo wrote: post #542
dudul wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big wave of outsourcing in 2000s was a disaster. This is not just about knowledge. It is also about cultural differences that are sometimes more limiting than not having face to face time. It is about timezone differences that make it hard to have calls or meetings.

The reason cultural difference was an issue is one dominant culture enforced by presence culture. Without presence culture there would be no dominant company culture, it would be more distributed around the world. Also, timezones don't make it hard to have meetings, it's the same culture preventing it to happen. In my current company I sit in Europe, and it's easier for me to find a time slot for a meeting with my US…

I am reminded of my experience working for a German medical equipment company. We have distributed shared service centres around the world. Policy, best-practices, etc are formulated in the head office. For some reason we have continual problems with colleagues from one South American region who never follow best-practices and cause a lot of additional work for other teams who have to clean-up after them. I believe this is exactly what we talk about when we discuss cultural issues. We also have problems with giving these colleagues additional training and mentorship because they prefer to start a lot later in the morning, so our working hour overlap is very minimal.

Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

#589

Post by Valkhyr »

izacus wrote: post #181
Valkhyr wrote: post #129

After a year working remotely, I don't think I'd be willing to go back to working fully (or even primarily) in the office. I could do a day here or there for team-building activities or major meetings, but that's pretty much the extent I'd be willing to do. Granted, this is based on having a 40-minutes train commute (each way, so 80 minutes/day), but unless I could have a 10 minute walk or bike commute I don't think…

I wonder how many people's opinions will change after a longer time. I wrote the exact same type of posts five years ago when I started my first fully remote job. After two years or so I had to look for an office because the isolation is just murderous and it takes a long amount of time to actually start showing its teeth.

I recognize that situations and preferences can change, yes. But it would have to be a pretty significant change for me to outweigh 80 minutes on a crowded Tokyo subway, particularly in summer.

FWIW, before the pandemic started, I was not enthusiastic at all about WFH, for various reasons but mostly because I live in a small one room apartment (quite usual here in the inner city in Tokyo). Now, after addressing basic issues to improve the ergonomics of my home office, most of the downsides are gone, and those that remain are outweighed by the prospect of commuting again. Of course, this could easily change if I moved closer to the office (or switched jobs to be physically closer), but considering rent close to the typical business hubs here, that's unattractive financially.

As for isolation: personally, I do a lot of pair programming (whether in the office or remotely), so I don't actually feel isolated at all. If would describe myself as mildly introvert, so YMMV, but I feel like I need to disconnect from people after a day of remote work no more or less than after a regular day at the office.

Re: Google is accelerating reopening of offices and putting limits on remote work

#590

Post by Valkhyr »

delfaras wrote: post #325
Valkhyr wrote: post #129

After a year working remotely, I don't think I'd be willing to go back to working fully (or even primarily) in the office. I could do a day here or there for team-building activities or major meetings, but that's pretty much the extent I'd be willing to do. Granted, this is based on having a 40-minutes train commute (each way, so 80 minutes/day), but unless I could have a 10 minute walk or bike commute I don't think…

I have a ~ 10 minutes walk commute to work and event I share your opinion, I wouldn't want to go back to the office either I used to work remotely for a different continent + 9 hours diff timezone and that was as painful as it can get: different hours for meetings, not knowing anything about my coworkers was really exhausting But with the ability to go back to the office only when I need to and focus on my work much…

Yeah, even if I could walk to the office I'd probably still split my time. But it would be a best of both worlds scenario for me :-)
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