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Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

economist.com

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Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#581

Post by bopbeepboop »

jl2718 wrote: post #572
blank_fan_pill wrote: post #65

I recognize that my experience is probably not average - but at my high school (2004-2008 US public school) the advanced/AP classes were 80%-90% female. This was true for all subjects, the student government, and the academic after school activities. Also anecdotal - but I've seen a lot of the boys who were academically behind seem to get their shit together ~3-5 years after graduating and ended up going to college,…

Raising animals has made me think a lot about maturation. Our babies are helpless and incompetent longer than any other species on earth. Compare a human to a dog at 3 months and clearly the dog is smarter and more capable. Slower maturation often ends up as better total cognitive adaptation as an adult. For some reason, boys are hormonally behind by about 4 years now, also with significant differences between haplot…

Another conclusion is that we’re badly stunting our best and brightest.

Raising plants you get the same effect if you transplant as a batch rather than as each plant matures — because the fast growers end up damaging their roots by over growing by the time you replant the bulk because that’s the average rate. Slow to average growers never encounter that problem.

It may not be that we’re seeing something fundamental so much as our own malpractice.

If you examine the negative outcomes of precocious students, most involve some form of self-harm rooted in boredom. Like a dog chewing itself because you keep it too idle.

That’s a sign we’re not seeing a fundamental fact of growth patterns.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#582

Post by dudul »

acenes wrote: post #502

It seems most commenters here think that the results can be explained by bias (e.g. on the part of teachers), or cultural factors / environment (e.g. schools are set up for women to do better), or personality differences (e.g. girls are more obedient etc), and so on. But isn't the most straightforward explanation that women are simpler smarter than men on average?

Can we apply the same logic and say that women are not as successful in their career because they're not as good in a professional setting as men?

Maybe there are so few female inventors because women are not as good at inventing/creating things?

Also, this is assuming grades are good at measuring how smart someone is.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#583

Post by skinkestek »

whimsicalism wrote: post #578
skinkestek wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if you're some weirdo who thinks there is no gender discrimination in the workplace, you can't deny that many women at least perceive there to be gender discrimination, Sample size of one, but if my company has the option to hire a male or a female engineer which are known to have the exact same skillset and experience I expect them to choose the female one 10/10 times: - hiring the man gets the job done - hir…

This isn't substantively responsive to my comment, about the perception of gender discrimination.

Seems you are right.

I probably replied to the wrong comment. Or didn't really read your comment.

Sorry.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#584

Post by at_a_remove »

jl2718 wrote: post #565
at_a_remove wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is called the "apex fallacy."

One thing I’d really like to see less of on this board, is argumentation by labeling an idea with some obscure field-dependent term, with no other logical support presented. Admittedly we allow this in mathematically rigorous fields, and there is, perhaps, some discussion to be had about what is rigorously proven as an inviolable natural law in the social sciences. It seems to me that such terms are admissible in the…

Fortunately, I was not arguing against the parent to whom I replied by simply vomiting out a little term. I was saying, "Hey, there is a common name for this idea you just mentioned, you may find it useful going forward."

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#585

Post by marbartolome »

throwaway53086 wrote: post #31

Anyone with young boys and girls will notice that girls are much more likely to obey rules and instructions. A lot of doing well in school is about following rules and instructions, and it seems pretty natural that girls will do better. Also, most teachers are women. I haven't checked, but I'd assume most school administrators are women. It seems natural that they'd construct a system that's more suited for females t…

Or perhaps we are stricter when raising girls, so they become more compliant.

"don't be so loud, that's not lady-like" "don't play in the dirt, you'll ruin your dress" "it's uncomfortable, I know, but you have to look pretty" "girls don't like sports, here, sit down and play with your dolls"

It's subtle things, but a million of them may make a difference. There's a lot more rules for girls than boys, they are used to spend their time in quieter activities, etc.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#586

Post by deanCommie »

skinkestek wrote: post #560
whimsicalism wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know why the pretty obvious explanation for why this sort of thing is common is downvoted. Even if you're some weirdo who thinks there is no gender discrimination in the workplace, you can't deny that many women at least perceive there to be gender discrimination, and one of the tips passed around is to stop self-deprecating yourself in front of your colleagues.

> Even if you're some weirdo who thinks there is no gender discrimination in the workplace, you can't deny that many women at least perceive there to be gender discrimination, Sample size of one, but if my company has the option to hire a male or a female engineer which are known to have the exact same skillset and experience I expect them to choose the female one 10/10 times: - hiring the man gets the job done - hir…

You are very close to getting it, but you're missing one crucial detail.

> which are known to have the exact same skillset and experience

Sure if there was an objective way to evaluate this, then you're right.

But there isn't. We THINK that there is, but there is a ton of subjective bias along the way from who recruiters contact, the resume screen, all the way through the interview.

And the whole point of gender discrimination is that "on average" women's technical skills and experience are undervalued.

That's the premise people are making when they discuss discriminations. Now, you might disagree, and then we can get into the details of why this happens, which parts are conscious and which parts are unconscious. But what's happening is not how you're describing it.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#587

Post by skinkestek »

deanCommie wrote: post #586
skinkestek wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if you're some weirdo who thinks there is no gender discrimination in the workplace, you can't deny that many women at least perceive there to be gender discrimination, Sample size of one, but if my company has the option to hire a male or a female engineer which are known to have the exact same skillset and experience I expect them to choose the female one 10/10 times: - hiring the man gets the job done - hir…

You are very close to getting it, but you're missing one crucial detail. > which are known to have the exact same skillset and experience Sure if there was an objective way to evaluate this, then you're right. But there isn't. We THINK that there is, but there is a ton of subjective bias along the way from who recruiters contact, the resume screen, all the way through the interview. And the whole point of gender disc…

> And the whole point of gender discrimination is that "on average" women's technical skills and experience are undervalued.

As have been pointed out before: most of us live in somewhat capitalist societies. Capitalists are AFAIK primarily greedy not primarily evil.

I don't believe for a second that Facebook wouldn't take the opportunity straight away if they could get the same work done for less money by hiring women instead.

IBM too. That should cause a feedback loop that increases salaries for female engineers until balance is reached.

Anything other would imply a lack of information somewhere or that capitalists were more evil than greedy.

Now that I think of it: Lack of information one or more places is actually an interesting hypothesis in its own right.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#588

Post by subtypefiddler »

anotherman554 wrote: post #466
twgp123 wrote: post #180

Throwaway because this is one of the data points you are required to ignore in polite society. Girls receive better grades until you blind the teachers. Teachers are biased in favor of girls, maybe because their behavior is better. The effect of biased grading is enormous and a huge disadvantage to our boys. > Gender-biased grading accounts for 21 percent of boys falling behind girls in math during middle school. [1]…

You are citing a study that isn't peer reviewed as a "data point" but when you summarize it like that looks like a factual claim when no factual conclusion should be drawn. It would be an interesting data point if there was any particularly reason to believe the document you cited would hold up to further study.

> study that isn't peer reviewed

Terrier, C., 2020. Boys lag behind: How teachers’ gender biases affect student achievement. Economics of Education Review, 77, p.101981.

"Economics of Education Review is a quarterly peer-reviewed academic journal covering education economics. It was established in 1981 and is published by Elsevier."

What are you talking about?

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#589

Post by Scea91 »

zionic wrote: post #337
908B64B197 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With shrinking recess time and PE disappearing from some schools, I also wonder if a lot of this is caused by boys having more energy and needing more movement than girls. Energy has to go somewhere so it ends up manifesting itself in behaviors that are deemed "disruptive" (really, not sitting still and being unable to concentrate on tasks). Maybe it's something that female administrators and teachers fail to underst…

Future generations will consider us barbarians for dosing our young boys with drugs because we providing them with physical education/exercise was inconvenient to us. They'll also be able to datamine the internet from this time period and use our own words to hang us.

It is good to mention that it this is not a global phenomenon. I am from Czechia, of course there are some kids diagnosed with ADHD and taking medication, but I would guess it is a very low number compared to USA.

Re: Girls perform better academically in almost all countries (2015)

#590

Post by higerordermap »

kamaal wrote: post #535
twgp123 wrote: post #180

Throwaway because this is one of the data points you are required to ignore in polite society. Girls receive better grades until you blind the teachers. Teachers are biased in favor of girls, maybe because their behavior is better. The effect of biased grading is enormous and a huge disadvantage to our boys. > Gender-biased grading accounts for 21 percent of boys falling behind girls in math during middle school. [1]…

>>Girls receive better grades until you blind the teachers. Teachers are biased in favor of girls, maybe because their behavior is better. In my country(India) we have board exams, where people evaluating and candidates are both anonymous to each other. People don't write their names, but use a number. Still Girls do better. Let's just agree girls are better at academic work.

Girls do better in boards, and boys do better in math-intensive tests like JEEs. It's balanced out here.
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