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Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

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Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#581

Post by mvc »

nine_k wrote: post #532
president wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot on. The interesting thing to note about the "mob mentality" of cancel culture in 2021 is that it is truly "power to the people". Essentially you have major corporations, politicians, and a media environment that are ceding to the cancelling demands of a certain majority because they will reap the rewards of this massive group of people whether that is more sales/profits, more votes, or more views. It is a story…

I'm not even sure it's a majority, just a very vocal and intolerant group, seen by many non-participants as doing a virtuous thing, fighting for social justice. Of course most businesses would not oppose such a force, because otherwise they will be a target themselves, and enough of a public opinion would be against them, at least vaguely. They have everything to lose, and very little to win if they do not conform. T…

What was the social justice being fought for when Colin Kaepernick was cancelled?

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#582

Post by slibhb »

taurath wrote: post #565
leereeves wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As it happens, there's an example being discussed here on HN right now: the NYT pushed out Donald McNeil Jr. for saying "You should never call someone a [N-word]". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26306020

From the daily beast - > McNeil repeatedly made racist and sexist remarks throughout the trip including, according to two complaints, using the “n-word.” I don’t understand how this is related to cancel culture, given it’s been corporate policy to not make racist and sexist remarks for decades? And just, regular human decency? What are the arguments for keeping this person employed by a major news organization?

You can read McNeil's perspective: https://donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com/nytimes-peru-n-word-p...

No one reasonable thinks he made a racist remark.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#583

Post by mantap »

oh_sigh wrote: post #576
nine_k wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underpinnings of the "cancel culture", the intolerance and mob mentality, were always around. The "cancel culture" adds two news things to the picture. One is the ability for anyone to participate, not just the few on the TV screen or newspaper pages. Another is the attempts at totality: expel the victim from every social media platform, every internet hosting, every payment platform, every public venue. It's not…

I think the inward-lookingness of cancellation is key here. Regarding attempts at totality, in the past, if you were cancelled, it was because you were group A masquerading in a group B world, and group B found out and kicked you out of B-world. But, importantly, Group B couldn't cancel you in the eyes of Group A, only in their own eyes. So if you were found out, your direct life got cancelled but there was frequentl…

The world isn't split into liberals and the far-right.

It's split into tolerant people and intolerant people.

Some people wear a thin veneer of tolerance to cover their intolerance. These are the people doing the canceling. These are the people you don't want to associate with anyway.

But there's still plenty of tolerant people around in society.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#584

Post by KittenInABox »

google234123 wrote: post #577
KittenInABox wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isabel Fall is a pseudonym; she can likely publish elsewhere under a different name. (This doesn't mean the response was proportionate or appropriate. The response to that story was way too far. But Isabel Fall herself can publish elsewhere under another pseudonym.)

How does that make it better? What if she had published under her real name? Do you think she could have published again after? Do we all have to publish under pseudonym's now for our own safety?

No, I'm not saying it makes it better. I'm in fact explicitly stating that the reaction to Isabel Fall was ridiculously overblown. However that's still not true that she's banned from the industry. Just because she's a victim doesn't mean we should misrepresent the manner in which she was victimized.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#585

Post by konjin »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #418
_f1dq wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, you bring up a point I had never considered which is; we've seen this before. In the 1950's and 1960's, you kind-of had to tow the line in what you said, how you dressed, etc... The cancelling wasn't quite as broad as it can be now simply because it wasn't technically feasible back then. You could, however, be in real danger of losing your job if you said you supported a registered Communist's right to speak the…

> In the 1950's and 1960's, you kind-of had to tow the line in what you said, how you dressed, etc... The cancelling wasn't quite as broad as it can be now simply because it wasn't technically feasible back then. If you were not white, it was much more extreme. Up to and including being murdered. EDIT: The irony of this comment being "canceled". Does one of the down-voters care to comment on this? Is it not a known f…

Like usual you focus on the few dozen Americans that it happened to while ignoring the millions of South Americans and South Asians who were murdered for being communist. Which is the point of identity politics, and the reason why more black panthers were murdered by FBI sponsored police raids than blacks were lynched.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#586

Post by konjin »

solosoyokaze wrote: post #451
keiferski wrote: post #9

I find it almost funny how the media/culture/etc. seems determined to build a group of people that will react negatively to so-called "cancel culture." They seem to think that people will gladly follow the ever-growing list of arbitrary rules indefinitely. If I were a betting man, I'd predict a resurgence in punk attitudes in about 2025 or 2030. At some point, the dam will break and people will stop caring. I already…

Have you considered that cancel culture is the new punk rock? Look at the reaction in this thread. The responses range from clutching pearls to legitimate fear. Just like the reactions to punk rock. Even the real punk rock was pretty much in line with what we consider cancel culture. It's an attack on the establishment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_Queen_(Sex_Pistol...

>Have you considered that cancel culture is the new punk rock?

Punk wasn't pushed down from Exxon's board room, cancel culture is pushed down from Google's though. You can't be a rebel when the establishment supports you every step of the way.

Here's Siouxsie being punk enough that she'd be cancelled today: https://www.reddit.com/r/goth/comments/ire2cs/what_is_up_wit...

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#587

Post by dragonwriter »

jtbayly wrote: post #580
dragonwriter wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A professor at a Christian college claimed to be in religious solidarity with Muslims. I'm not sure if the greater theological offense was the solidarity with Muslims or quoting the Pope in support of it (Wheaton had only a few years before fired a professor for converting to Catholicism; “Christian” isn't a label of a monolithic group in practice.)

It doesn’t matter. Either way you are not dealing with cancel culture. You are dealing with somebody who has gone on the record s as opposing the fundamental goals of the organization she works for. As I said before, of course you get fired.

Virtually every instance of firing or other institutional disaffiliation attributed to “cancel culture” follows the same pattern: someone—inside or outside an institution—complains to an institution (of those within it empowered to make decisions on this kind of issue) with an allegation that the institutions relationship with someone violates what they perceive to be the fundamental values of the institution, the institution reviews and reaches a similar conclusion, and the relationship is terminated.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#588

Post by prionassembly »

kennywinker wrote: post #374
prionassembly wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re blurring away the gap between behavior and ideas. Sexual misconduct and “anti trans” views are as incommensurable as musical scales and baseball bats.

I understand there is a difference. I’m saying I think the ideas being cancelled are actually just the kind of garbage ideas that don’t have merit but do cause harm. Do you think that anti-trans beliefs are going to be a source of intellectual progress? Because i’d argue that the deconstruction of the gender binary IS the kind of transformative idea that some people in this thread are saying is being stifled. Is the…

My general intuition agrees with your views on gender. But I don’t trust my general intuition blindly - nor do I think it should be the basis for social engineering.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#589

Post by musicale »

I'm OK with people saying "you wrote a terrible book that nobody should buy or read."

I'm less OK with people saying "because you wrote a terrible book, we need to ensure that you are severely punished, that you present a public confession and apology for writing it, and that none of your writing is ever published or read again by anyone."

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#590

Post by RobLach »

dash2 wrote: post #203
RobLach wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly so. There's ample evidence that the current is the greatest opportunity for dissenting thought and opinion to have massive reach without much consequence or effort. The idea that we're in a dark age of thought is purely rhetorical and only serves to frame a narrative that further amplifies ideas that would never had a chance to propagate before the information era. Furthermore, we are living in a time of such…

"Dark age of thought" would be excessive (and is maybe a straw man). But there's plenty of people being cancelled: https://www.afaf.org.uk/the-banned-list/ https://sutherlandhousebooks.com/who-cancel/

This is a misguided and ludicrous argument.

If you can write a book, you can self-publish on Amazon or on Amazon competitor's and reach a commercial audience billions large.

If a self-publishing marketplace for some reason won't take you, you can host a pdf on a $5/month server that can reach every internet connected individual with a format that can be read by that internet connected device.

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