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WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

arstechnica.com

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Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#581

Post by Atariman »

7v3x3n3sem9vv wrote: post #359
Atariman wrote: post #265

As a privacy concerned European, there's only one viable alternative: https://threema.ch/en/ It's open source and very secure: https://www.securemessagingapps.com/

I'm curious if you've looked into Signal and if you think it's a viable alternative to Threema? Specifically considering Signal is fully open source (client and servers), uses reproducible builds which allows you to verify that the source matches the app you're running, and is owned by a non-profit which can't be sold to a for-profit company.

Signal is still US-based, so I'm not interested.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#583

Post by rusk »

submeta wrote: post #467

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

As I understand it even with click thru agreement like this it is still illegal in the EU. Could be an interesting case on the way... I believe that WhatsApp only real option in this case is to stop serving the EU, which I feel as an EU residents could only be a good thing!

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#584

Post by dessant »

csunbird wrote: post #576
dessant wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> forks ... may not use the official Signal network Is it technically prevented or just frowned upon? The former would be strange, because fixing a bug in your own private fork would also exclude you from the network.

I actually do not find this unreasonable, maintaining and providing backwards support everyone's custom version with their own quirks would be a big technical burden.

Allowing modding and forks does not mean you have to provide support for them.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#585

Post by Atariman »

533474 wrote: post #276
Atariman wrote: post #265

As a privacy concerned European, there's only one viable alternative: https://threema.ch/en/ It's open source and very secure: https://www.securemessagingapps.com/

spelling mistakes on the landing page

Not every company is from an English speaking country, so spelling mistakes are happening.

You're welcome to send them an email to with the fixes instead of grumble here.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#586

Post by bostik »

malinens wrote: post #547
muzani wrote: post #407

"As part of the Facebook family of companies, WhatsApp receives information from, and shares information with, this family of companies. We may use the information we receive from them, and they may use the information we share with them, to help operate, provide, improve, understand, customize, support, and market our Services and their offerings. This includes helping improve infrastructure and delivery systems, un…

Looks like end to end encryption feature is bullshit marketing trick if they for example process my message before my device encrypts it to send it to other devices...

Well, let's be fair. The threat model for end-to-end encryption assumes that endpoint devices or the software itself used for communication are not compromised. Or subverted.

It's common knowledge that group chats are not E2E - there is one encryption context from a user to the servers, and another context from the server to each member of the group chat. Bog standard transport layer security, in other words.

However, even if you never used group chats and had E2E on with all your contacts, the traffic analysis ("metadata use") is enough to build associations and clusters. FB doesn't need to know the message contents (although they make use of them when available). You have frequent chats with people who play certain kinds of sports? Fine, for marketing purposes you'll be grouped with people who like those sports. Or if majority of your friends have pets - guess which cohorts you end up as well.

Oh, and if I remember correctly, WA definitely processes your messages locally before sending them: it uses a list of image hashes to prevent sending eg. child exploitation material onwards.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#587

Post by Namari »

boredatworkme wrote: post #494

Can someone help and dumb this down a little bit for me so that I can then explain to some of my friends who couldn't care too much about this change in policy? For example: What should be my response to questions like: . "What kind of data can now be shared with FB versus what was shared earlier (if any)?" . "Whatsapp chats are end to end encrypted so how can my data be shared with FB?" . "As an individual, how diff…

The article says Whatsapp will now share:

    * User phone numbers
    * Other people’s phone numbers stored in address books
    * Profile names
    * Profile pictures and
    * Status message including when a user was last online
    * Diagnostic data collected from app logs
and already was getting:

    Purchases
    Financial information
    Location
    Contacts
    User content
    Identifiers
    Usage data and
    Diagnostics

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#588

Post by lrvick »

chalst wrote: post #539
lrvick wrote: post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

I don't like Signal's stance on forks (which is that they are allowed but may not use the official Signal network) but it hardly has identical drawbacks. Signal is open source, can be downloaded as an official APK and can be run on LineageOS without Google Play (notifications do require some emulation of Play Services calls, but that can be provided using MicroG).

Moxie highly discourages using the APK because it means turning on untrusted sources which is highly unsafe and bypasses signature verification.

It is one BGP attack or compromised CDN admin way from compromising the masses.

This is one of the few points I agree with moxie on.

The only safe way to install software on an Android device requires you bootstrap trust via a system supplied package manager that enforces signature verification.

Lineage grabs unsigned binary blobs from a separate account with little accountability ( https://GitHub.com/themuppets ) to limit the blast radius of illegally distributing them and does not ship a package manager at all.

They expect degoogled users to do disable system signature verification to use an alternative app store like F-droid. Lineage is great if you want to turn an old device into a game system or something, but it should not be used on a device you need to be able to trust.

The only Google-free option to have a signed system-verified app supply chain on Android is use a ROM that bundles F-droid as a system trusted app manager like CalyxOS, RattlesnakeOS, or my projects, aosp-build, and #!os.

While F-Droid is far from perfect it is the only alternative path and Moxie refuses to allow apps to be distributed there because he openly admits he wants the usage metrics that come from Google/Apple distribution.

In effect, you either use Apple/Google ecosystems to run verified binaries, or compile yourself every week or two.

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#589

Post by johnchristopher »

lrvick wrote: post #503
submeta wrote: post #467

I am in the EU, and this is what I have been presented with: „ By tapping Agree, you accept the new terms, which take effect on February 8, 2021. After this date, you’ll need to accept the new terms to continue using WhatsApp. You can also visit the Help Center if you would prefer to delete your account and would like more information. To learn more about how WhatsApp processes your data, read our updated privacy pol…

So you are going to move from one centralized, walled garden, privacy hostile platform that hard requires Google/Apple ecosystems to get signed updates... to another with identical drawbacks. I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix. How many times do cen…

> I suggest something that lets you use any client/platform you want, uses the same crypto primitives, and lets you choose what server/country your data is hosted in and change your mind any time, e.g Matrix.

I'll bite.

Who's paying for my johnchristopher@whatever.tld and for the data (avatar pictures, transfered files, chat logs) associated with it ?

Will the Matrix foundation let me use their services forever and for free ?

Will there be discussion on HN in ten years about getting your own custom domain and own federated server ? For one account only ? Like we have for mail regularly ?

Re: WhatsApp gives users an ultimatum: Share data with Facebook or stop using app

#590

Post by patall »

lodovic wrote: post #541
patall wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an source for that claim. I am in Europe and have never heard that. The closest I know of is right wing groups using Telegramm for their Anti-Covid agitation.

updated GP

Sorry, I have now spent almost an hour reading 7 articles of yours and, from my point of view, none supports your claim. Framing implys for me that some other person publicly claims something although that is not really the case (i.e Telegramm is not popular with criminals), else, it is just reporting.

Neither could I find anything matching your second point that installing any of these messengers might make law enforcement suspect you to be a criminal.

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