‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#581

Post by honkdaddy » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:19 PM UTC

ygjb wrote: post #526

treis wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you are arguing in bad faith; there are several parts of the article that detail exactly what you are looing for. Everything you list is an accusation. What I am looking for is: (1) Person X said this racist thing happened. (2) The event in (1) is (a) true, and (b) backed up by a corroborating witness, this email, some document, etc >You also have to look at the facts; Susan is an excellent writer, and based on…

Meh. You are moving goal posts, and you are making baseless claims against an experienced reporter who is well connected in the Bay Area for a major newspaper. You are offhandedly discounting the reported experience of more than 20 people, many of whom have come forward with evidence.

Personally, I think what he's asking for is entirely reasonable, and I was also disappointed to see a lack of hard evidence in the hit-piece.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#582

Post by wpietri » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:30 PM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #531

glaive123 wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Vacuous character assassination.

You claim that there's "absolutely no evidence" that racism is endemic, which is an absurd claim to make. There's enormous amounts of it. Hundreds of studies. Hundreds of books. And the daily lived experience of million of people, who you need only listen to on the Internet. But if you want a very simple, obvious one, take NBER paper 9873: https://www.nber.org/papers/w9873

One could plausibly debate the level of it. But to sweepingly declare there's absolutely no evidence isn't so much a claim of fact as a declaration of willful ignorance. Which, unfortunately, is part of why racism is still endemic. See, for example, Loewen's "Sundown Towns", where the later chapters show how America's ongoing de-facto segregation, which was born out of the Nadir, both depends on and creates the sort of refusal to see the obvious that you engage in here.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#583

Post by wpietri » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:38 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #512

wpietri wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racism is endemic in the US. It was founded with the notion that black people were basically livestock. We've slowly and fitfully moved away from that, but the problem is far from over. With any company we should assume that both personal and systemic bias are present. Which is why well-run companies work to counter that.

> Racism is endemic in the US. It was founded with the notion that black people were basically livestock. The existence of slavery in the past isn’t driving the current race issues in the US so much as fallout from much more recent segregation policies. Nobody alive today was a (or was born to) a slave and the majority of the states that make up the United States were not even part of the country during the civil war…

I agree plenty of history happened in between, but your notion that they're unrelated is absurd. Nobody today learned English from Alexander Hamilton, but nonetheless we not only understand the Federalist Papers just fine, we live by many of the ideas he expressed. Culture is handed down.

If you'd like to better understand that, I'd suggest you read Kendi's "Stamped from the Beginning", who gives an intellectual history of America's racist ideas. I also think you're mistaken to lay the current troubles at the feet of formal segregation policies, which were only active in one part on the US. Maybe go read "Sundown Towns", which shows that all across America we had towns with de-facto segregation without formal policies. And it takes only a glance at modern maps showing race to see we haven't solved the problem.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#584

Post by disown » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:43 PM UTC

__float wrote: post #339

disown wrote: post #302

> at least 11 of them informed the human resources department or their managers about what they said was racist or discriminatory treatment ... One Black employee said her manager suggested in front of colleagues that she was dealing drugs and carrying a gun, trading on racist stereotypes. In an era of smartphones and viral videos, the fact that we don't have a single audio/video recording exposing the racism seems r…

> In an era of smartphones and viral videos, the fact that we don't have a single audio/video recording exposing the racism seems rather suspect. I'm not saying that is proof of anything. But something to consider. Do you regularly record interactions with your coworkers, on the chance they may say something incriminating? I don't, and I expect most would not try to record things at work unless they go into a meeting…

> Do you regularly record interactions with your coworkers, on the chance they may say something incriminating?

That's a silly response and you know it. If there was systematic racism, as the article seems to be implying, then yes, I would record it. I would record it even if it wasn't directed at me but someone else. If more than 50% of the black employees are leaving due to "racism" then of course I would record it. Wouldn't you? If a manager was being racist towards your co-worker, wouldn't you record it? Or are you a racist?

> This sounds awfully similar to the argument made against women: qualified women just don't apply!

No. I'm saying there is not a lot of black students getting CS degrees/etc. Hence the lack of qualified employees. It's a supply problem, not a demand problem.

> You seem to accept Coinbase/Brian Armstrong's words without question.

No. I specifically said I didn't in the comment you replied to. I said I am open to the idea of racism but I find it very unlikely.

> Why do you feel that the Black employees' words must be critiqued to hell and back?

The difference between you and me is that I just want the truth and you want to push an agenda. I think everyone's words should be critiqued "to hell and back". Including the ceo, black employees and most definitely the political activists at the nytimes. How else are you going to get to the truth?

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#585

Post by RestlessMind » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:45 PM UTC

whymauri wrote: post #145

cbthrow91 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our execs have short text guides on how to work best with them and everyone on my team has been encouraged to share similar. The default assumption is everyone should be working together to accommodate on how we can all work best together. I've been in environments where certain communications styles are labeled more correct or ideal. So I've really loved this guidebook + accommodation approach. I went into this arti…

>CB is a really great company for any curious nerd to join. Not if they're black or brown, apparently. I have no idea how you could say this is a 'great' company after reading this article. Like my mind is actually blown.

> Not if they're black or brown, apparently.

You are wrong, apparently. 4 out of 7 members of the exec team have last names indicating they are people of color. Check yourself: https://www.coinbase.com/about

If the head of product and the head of engineering are brown people, I am very confident that CB is a great place to join for brown nerds since culture flows from the top.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#586

Post by treis » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:46 PM UTC

x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #486

throwmylifawy wrote: post #214

Reading through the comments as black person is depressing. Many of the comments question whether the accusations are even true or collusive attack because of an unfounded accusation that black people tend to be SJWs (stereotyping). Others blame affirmative-action, bad schools, etc. (classic misdirection). Some even venture into the possibility that a black person complaining about being passed over for promotion mig…

I'm black too, and let's be honest here. The burden of proof that is being posed by folks on HN isn't because they are actually seeking proof, it's so that they can say >"You don't have sufficient evidence, so we are going to go with whatever non-race based reason I can find as the cause" Seeking evidence about an event is a worthy activity, but becomes a fools errand when the audience is sympathetic if not outright…

>I'm black too, and let's be honest here. The burden of proof that is being posed by folks on HN isn't because they are actually seeking proof, it's so that they can say

That's not honest and that's not why I asked for proof.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#587

Post by treis » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

ygjb wrote: post #526

treis wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And you are arguing in bad faith; there are several parts of the article that detail exactly what you are looing for. Everything you list is an accusation. What I am looking for is: (1) Person X said this racist thing happened. (2) The event in (1) is (a) true, and (b) backed up by a corroborating witness, this email, some document, etc >You also have to look at the facts; Susan is an excellent writer, and based on…

Meh. You are moving goal posts, and you are making baseless claims against an experienced reporter who is well connected in the Bay Area for a major newspaper. You are offhandedly discounting the reported experience of more than 20 people, many of whom have come forward with evidence.

>You are moving goal posts, and you are making baseless claims against an experienced reporter who is well connected in the Bay Area for a major newspap

You did that! You said Susan Fowler was effective because she was able to speak truth to power. Implying that this article is ineffective because the writer doesn't know how to speak truth to power.

>You are offhandedly discounting the reported experience of more than 20 people, many of whom have come forward with evidence.

No I didn't. I said I tend to believe them.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#588

Post by thu2111 » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

glaive123 wrote: post #495

CryptoPunk wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely absurd. There is absolutely no evidence that "racism is endemic in the US". These kinds of blanket characterizations, are baseless fearmongering, and are incredibly irresponsible.

[flagged]

Nobody calls them "crypto bros" except the sort of people who work at the New York Times, and those sort of people routinely describe anything they don't like as racist or sexist. Bitcoin is built on the work of many people who are totally anonymous even - doesn't get more neutral or non-racist/sexist than that.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#589

Post by RestlessMind » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

aspaceman wrote: post #389

aparsons wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the problem posed by “SJW” entities in a nutshell. Of course racism exists, and AAs have been one of the big targets for decades. But even considering another alternative explanation to something related to discrimination gets you on the list of racists/deserving-of-cancellation/etc. There is always room for debate, especially in a case like this where information is sparse. Forcibly shutting down anyone who…

But no one is being forcibly shut down here. The debate is happening. It occurs. But then someone makes a comment like above: “is all this debate really necessary?” and the response is “this is censorship”. I would agree that some viewpoints are silenced in public contexts. But insofar as this conversation, I don’t see anyone being cancelled or shut down for an opinion. That just seems like a defensive reaction to me…

> But insofar as this conversation, I don’t see anyone being cancelled or shut down for an opinion

Because this conversation allows me to be anonymous. I simply don't dare expressing my thoughts with my real identity attached. Who knows whether I will get cancelled or fired.

The people working on suppression of certain viewpoints have hurt themselves in the long run. Now I am seeing candid discussions happening only in small trusted circles or on anonymous forums. That can be another reason why we saw embarrassing polling errors in 2016/2020 - openly supporting Trump can be a very risky move for someone.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#590

Post by thu2111 » Sat, Nov 28, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

enumjorge wrote: post #464

roenxi wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To repeat the grandparent, what else can they do? Many of the "issues" bought up in this article aren't even problematic. It says John Russ left because Armstrong took public stance that he wanted Coinbase to focus on crypto space stuff. Coinbase's stance there is fair, reasonable and moral. It is desirable that some companies just do what it says on the tin. If Russ had a reason for quitting that was race-related th…

You took one example and ignored the rest. It’s not like NYT wrote this article simply because Russ left. What about the employees who were asked to be present for photo shoots to show workplace diversity but who felt ignored and talked down to during meetings? That sounds problematic. If it were a couple of employees it’s one thing but when most of your black employees leave because of what they feel is racism in th…

They probably wrote it because Coinbase stood up to BLM activists internally and the NYT is the media arm of BLM. But you get these accusations constantly against companies. "I felt ignored in meetings therefore the firm is sexist and racist". No, that happens to people all the time, including white men. A better explanation is maybe you weren't saying anything worth listening to in meetings, or you feel you were but your manager disagreed.

when most of your black employees leave because of what they feel is racism in the workplace that’s harder to ignore

They weren't ignoring it. Some of these people weren't even saying they felt that way to Coinbase - one of the people who claims she was bullied also claims nobody told her how to make an official complaint and that's why Coinbase have no record of her views. Complaining to HR has to be the easiest task in any modern corporation; if she couldn't figure out how to do even that then we probably found the explanation for why she felt unappreciated: maybe she just sucked. Or maybe she's made up this supposed racism after she left, as part of achieving other ends (like getting in the NYT).