Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service • Hacker News Board

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#581

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

fulafel wrote: post #293

Devils-Avocado wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe those services pay for a huge welfare and pension system, and healthcare which is mostly used by the elderly. Very little benefit will be received by a working-age expat.

In the big picture welfare pays for a society with decreased social strife. For a working age expat this means not having to harden yourself and your family against homeless people on the streets, be afraid of getting mugged, and having educated & skilled coworkers because free education doesn't waste the potential of the economically disadvantaged.

[deleted]

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#582

Post by geofft » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:27 PM UTC

reader_mode wrote: post #224

kaitai wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend in graduate school (making $18k a year) had a baby who had some complications; the final bill was $1.5 million dollars. She was an immigrant from the Caribbean; her family there was reasonably paid by national standards there, but... $1.5 million is a lot to cover. And remember, the spouse can't cover you unless you're registered on their insurance. A few weeks in the NICU and a couple surgeries and there y…

Don't get me wrong - the situation sounds terrible and I'm sure the US health insurance system is pretty bad for a lot of people (at least it sounds like your friend got the treatment and can go through bankruptcy to clear off the debt) - but from OPs perspective, being covered by insurance on a good income - being in constant fear of medical bankruptcy sounds bizarre to me.

It is bizarre! We live in a country with bizarre healthcare structures! No one is denying that it's bizarre! We're just saying it's true. You Europeans cannot imagine what it's like here thanks to being surrounded by competent social support structurs your whole life, and it's beyond frustrating that you think you know better than we do how awful it is in our country and how we could "just" do something to make it better. If we could, we would.

I feel like if there's a risk of needing to go through bankruptcy in order to have a child, I would be justified in being terrified of it. Childbirth is in fact a life-threatening event, but it's also one a lot of people go through successfully, and you want to end up on the other side of it with enough money to raise the resulting child.

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#583

Post by theshrike79 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:28 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #471

theshrike79 wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the correct answer. If you're a single software engineer, don't come to Helsinki. Go to SV or somewhere where they pay you mid six figures to work your ass off 16 hours a day. But if you're either too old to find that exciting or have children, Finland is a great place to live. Just the subsidised child care itself will make it worth it. No "college funds" either.

I'm not sure subsidized childcare covers it. If you're comparing 3k EUR takehome to a mid-level engineer in the bay area which is probably 15k USD (rolling in bonus + stock), that's 144k USD more per year take home. Even for 2 kids at $24k per year ($48k total), you can cover childcare and have another ~$100k USD left over.

Child care here is around 250€/month with reduced cost for each kid beyond the first in daycare. Pre-school (Age 6->) is free as is school + school lunches.

Compared to what, a few thousand a month PER CHILD in the US?

Also birth and all pre-natal care etc. is practically free (tens of euros per visit max).

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#584

Post by alkonaut » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:46 PM UTC

woobar wrote: post #567

alkonaut wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But take home pay in Helsinki is basically rent+food+beer money. ´ Take home pay in the US is college money, rainy day money, retirement money... Can't really compare take home pay in a welfare state with US take home pay. It's just not possible. Now: if you plan to retire in the US, obviously your equation would be slightly different. Paying for an education in the US, then moving to a place where salaries are set a…

Looking at the Finland pensions [1], I'd think you would like to save extra for retirement. Max government pension is less than SSA benefit in the USA (€1,368 vs $3,113) [1] https://www.etk.fi/en/finnish-pension-system/pension-securit...

You can easily have a €4K/mo pension in Finland without private savings. It depends on how much you earned.

Calculator https://www.tyoelake.fi/sv/pensionsraknaren/

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#585

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 6:47 PM UTC

woobar wrote: post #567

alkonaut wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But take home pay in Helsinki is basically rent+food+beer money. ´ Take home pay in the US is college money, rainy day money, retirement money... Can't really compare take home pay in a welfare state with US take home pay. It's just not possible. Now: if you plan to retire in the US, obviously your equation would be slightly different. Paying for an education in the US, then moving to a place where salaries are set a…

Looking at the Finland pensions [1], I'd think you would like to save extra for retirement. Max government pension is less than SSA benefit in the USA (€1,368 vs $3,113) [1] https://www.etk.fi/en/finnish-pension-system/pension-securit...

[deleted]

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#586

Post by 533474 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

ZekeTheLeek wrote: post #556

How would this look for someone who is 40 years old with wife and 2 kids? I've now transitioned to tech leadership roles for the last 4 years after ~16 of being purely tech, but i'm afraid my relocation prospects have dwindled because of passing some arbitrary age barrier

I'd try if I were you. Now that you are in leadership positions, please, also do something about ageism in our industry :)

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#587

Post by camhart » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:35 PM UTC

jjav wrote: post #250

camhart wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't most policies have a max out of pocket? Everyone I've seen/had did.

Out of pocket does not mean what normal people think it should mean. Your actual out of pocket can be far larger, up to unlimited. First, every dollar you pay does not count towards the insurance company tally of "out of pocket". Often it is a tiny fraction. I've personally had years where my true out of pocket was in the several thousands but according to the insurance company my "out of pocket" was less than $100.…

"The current law bans annual dollar limits that all job-related plans and individual health insurance plans can put on most covered health benefits."

https://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/about-the-aca/benefit-limits/....

"The health care law stops insurance companies from limiting yearly or lifetime coverage expenses for essential health benefits."

https://www.healthcare.gov/health-care-law-protections/lifet...

I wonder what's included in "covered health benefits"/"essential health benefits" and what's not.

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#588

Post by 533474 » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:38 PM UTC

suyash wrote: post #18

What's the catch here?

I called the programme organizer. The catch is that you need a job in the US that is willing to let you work remotely. There might be tax issues if u r willing to relocate ur permanent residence.

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#589

Post by woobar » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #584

woobar wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at the Finland pensions [1], I'd think you would like to save extra for retirement. Max government pension is less than SSA benefit in the USA (€1,368 vs $3,113) [1] https://www.etk.fi/en/finnish-pension-system/pension-securit...

You can easily have a €4K/mo pension in Finland without private savings. It depends on how much you earned. Calculator https://www.tyoelake.fi/sv/pensionsraknaren/

I've entered €6K/mo (the senior eng salary mentioned in this discussion, aka top 10% salary in Finland) and used €1414 accrued pension (* median value from the table for a person born in 1960) and got €1.9/mo for someone close to retirement.

So far I am not sure how easy it is to get to 4K/mo.

But my point was more about you mentioning retirement savings only for US workers. While median income earners will get very similar government pensions in both countries.

Re: Helsinki Relocation Package: City as a Service

#590

Post by 1rs » Fri, Nov 06, 2020, 7:55 PM UTC

throwawayzRUU6f wrote: post #501

exDM69 wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't necessarily want to use that angle on Finland... the gas tank is pretty large and gas is highly taxed, both figuratively and literally. While the cost of car ownership and general cost of living is high, I'd like to point out that you don't necessarily need a car if you live and work in Helsinki. Or at least you don't need two cars in the household. A bicycle is a perfectly viable option for transport for…

Well, good luck hauling small kids, furniture, gardening or construction materials by bike or public transportation. Most of the adults are not singles in their twenties or early thirties, living in a rented flat. Once you get a family or buy a house, owning a car is basically a must. And the price tag for it in Finland is very high. 1000e a year just for mandatory car tax, mandatory yearly checkup and liability insu…

Daycare and Healthcare for kids is cheap though. And you don't have to pay for good schools or move to another neighbourhood to get a good school. This far outweighs the cost of a car.