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Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

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Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#581

Post by noetic_techy »

j45 wrote: post #165
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

The "pick two" argument tends to hold weight if there's no way to execute anything better. Innovation is finding ways to do things faster, better, and quite often (in the long run generally) cheaper. It's the nature of disruption. For education.. it seems mighty suspicious that we can't create better ways of delivering curriculum that doesn't change often... but in social media we can pump out so much digital informa…

I 100% agree that the "pick two" only applies if you cannot setup and alternate system. Hence my recommendation to for certs to break the monopoly. I really think tech has yet to TRULY disrupt education.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#582

Post by noetic_techy »

joe_the_user wrote: post #186
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

It's impressive to see this simplistic "you get what you pay for, damn it" sort of argument appearing in a situation where clearly students don't get what they pay for at all. It's easy to find example in the US past and in other countries where high general and specialized quality education is provided in a fairly low-cost fashion.

>>It's impressive to see this simplistic "you get what you pay for, damn it" sort of argument appearing in a situation where clearly students don't get what they pay for at all.

I'm not saying you get what you pay for, I'm saying you get what you vote for. The government needs to get the heck out of the loan market.

>>It's easy to find example in the US past and in other countries where high general and specialized quality education is provided in a fairly low-cost fashion.

If you are talking about Europe, the catch is that they weed out those who shouldn't be there early. For example in Italy, everyone can go for the first year, but then you have to pass a continuation exam, that upwards of 50 to 70 % fail. Germany has a similar system with exams early in high school that separate what tier school you can go to (trade schools or universities). So sure, its "free/low cost" but and technically "universal", except for those who fail at the gate. Otherwise try your luck in the US where you can rack up massive debt to attend any for profit college with 90% acceptance rates and the peice of paper is accredited the same as any other college. Plus, most Europeans want to finish in an American school because late game quality is light year beyond what you can get in Europe save for a few schools like Cambridge or Oxford, and maybe the Max Planck institute.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#583

Post by noetic_techy »

mschuster91 wrote: post #459
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

> Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. In Germany we have all three: everyone with the proper credentials ("Abitur" plus a couple side ways for those who didn't manage it, like a Master certification in a trade) can attend university, our universities are top notch, and free (even for foreigners).

The key there is proper credentials. I have German relatives and was suprised to learn about the exams that dictate essentially which tier of education you can pursue. Sure its free AFTER the fact. Italy has a similar system where you must take a continuation exam after year 1 which anywhere from 50 to 70% fail. Its true top American schools don't accept just anyone, but there typically IS a university out there that WILL accept you in America unless you are an absolute moron, and the degrees offered typically have the same accreditation as any other (if they are not accedited then it is a typically considered close to a scam degree that only the gullible fall for), just maybe not the prestige of the school. The catch in America is you go into massive debt.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#584

Post by noetic_techy »

pjmlp wrote: post #489
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

European universities actually profit from letting the government meddle, and most of us do have much more opportunities for attending universities than the average American, from the available information. In some countries it still is free (or has a symbolic price), go figure!

I hear this all the time but they never mention the exams that weed out large % of the population unless you jump through additional hoops. Germany has exams that dictate whether you go to university or trade school, with very little recourse to fix. Italy has continuation exams after the first year that 50 to 70 % can fail. Sure its free/low cost after the fact. Its a totally different government meddled system in Europe. Almost anyone in the US can find a for profit University (I know many with a 90% acceptance rate) that will accept them somewhere in the US with real accredited degrees.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#585

Post by noetic_techy »

twic wrote: post #126
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

> This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. No, this is just boring, lazy libertarianism. What the government did was hand the private sector a blank cheque, which they duly deposited into their bank account…

Except that it is no where near universal in Europe. I hear this all the time but they never mention the exams that weed out large % of the population unless you jump through additional hoops. Germany has exams that dictate whether you go to university or trade school, with very little recourse to fix. Italy has continuation exams after the first year that 50 to 70 % can fail. Its a totally different government meddled system in Europe. Almost anyone in the US can find a for profit University (I know many with a 90% acceptance rate) that will accept them somewhere in the US with real accredited degrees. The problem is that free government money is tide that raises all prices.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#586

Post by noetic_techy »

mola wrote: post #453
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

I dunno, colleges in Europe fair well, there most countries just subsidize tuition. And rely on tradition and non rational incentives to keep quality reasonable. The failure modes arise when the actors are rational and profit oriented.

I hear this all the time but they never mention the exams that weed out large % of the population unless you jump through additional hoops. Germany has exams that dictate whether you go to university or trade school, with very little recourse to fix. Italy has continuation exams after the first year that 50 to 70 % can fail. Its a totally different government meddled system in Europe. Almost anyone in the US can find a for profit University (I know many with a 90% acceptance rate) that will accept them somewhere in the US with real accredited degrees.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#587

Post by noetic_techy »

rscho wrote: post #476
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

> Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. Or, move to the Old Continent and pick 3... Although fees are indirectly increasing in Europe as well. But it still is massively more affordable than in the US. Hopefully, we'll manage to keep it that way.

I hear this all the time but they never mention the exams that weed out large % of the population unless you jump through additional hoops. Germany has exams that dictate whether you go to university or trade school, with very little recourse to fix. Italy has continuation exams after the first year that 50 to 70 % can fail. Its a totally different government meddled system in Europe. Almost anyone in the US can find a for profit University (I know many with a 90% acceptance rate) that will accept them somewhere in the US with real accredited degrees.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#588

Post by noetic_techy »

whiddershins wrote: post #488
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

I would invite you to examine the non-dischargeable debt claim before propagating it.

Thanks, I did and you are partially correct. I'm not talking private loan debt, I'm talking Federal student loan debt.

https://studentaid.gov/manage-loans/forgiveness-cancellation...

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/797330613/myth-busted-turns-o...

It's considered difficult but not totally impossible. It is indeed treated differently from other debt.

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