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The Four Quadrants of Conformism

paulgraham.com

581–590 of 882 posts

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#581

Never thought I'd see the day that a pg essay crosses over with /r/politicalcompassmemes The problem with "discussing ideas" as a framing is that it exists in opposition to something. What is that something? Those whose position favours the status quo would read it in opposition to "not discussing ideas", which is obviously bad. However, to those who find the status quo untenable, the opposite position is "acting on…

I think you are wrong about the abolition of slavery.

Slavery had existed in almost every society throughout history (and beyond, no doubt). The word slave comes from the Slavs of eastern Europe, who were captured and enslaved by the Turks and Barbary pirates.

Then there was a unique event: Protestant (many non-conformist) groups in the wealthiest democratic country (Britain), decided to campaign on a fundamental principle of Enlightenment and Christian human rights. It was a vivid debate of ideals and economic practicalities, conducted in the Mother of Parliaments, and on the streets outside.

Britain was a major beneficiary of slavery in the American colonies and the Caribbean. It would have renounced the trade, and the practice, in the late 18th century, but the military and economic imperatives of the French Revolution, American Revolution and Napoleonic Wars intervened. So the British slave trade was not abolished until 1807, and the practice of slavery itself in 1833.

Britain also had the largest navy in the world at that time. It not just passed laws for its empire, but also actively blockaded Atlantic ports and intercepted the slave trade from Africa to Spanish and Portuguese colonies (both Catholic, not a coincidence). It was later joined by the northern Yankee navy in the Atlantic and on the Barbary coast of N.Africa. Slavery was abolished in the US and Russia (serfdom) about the same time in the 1860s, but it lingered in Cuba and Brazil toward the end of the 19th century.

T.E.Lawrence commented on the slavery he found in Saudi Arabia during World War 1 (1916) [Seven Pillars of Wisdom]. The practice of legal slavery continued into the 1970s in the Gulf States, and the indentured servitude practiced there today is little different (long working hours in difficult conditions, physical isolation, confiscation of passports, non-payment of wages, no rights in the legal system, sexual abuse of women, etc.). The fact that these countries are undemocratic unenlightened Arabs is also not a coincidence (Arabs seem to have an extra cultural level of racist arrogance, over and above the intolerance of other Muslims in non-Arab countries, such as, say, Iran or Indonesia).

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#582
post #55

I enjoyed this essay, but I think PG missed one aspect of the recent cultural changes: Even though startups are founded by the aggressively independent-minded, they have insane amounts of ideological conformity. Many people with beliefs that are widespread in the US (pro-life, pro-gun, Republican, etc) are now "in the closet" in the Bay Area. Don't believe me? 10% of San Franciscans voted for Trump in 2016. Yet of al…

Coming from where I live, it's surprising to think of any of those (pro-life, pro-gun, or Trump voter) being quiet about it, so my feeling is that they are nonexistent in your circles, not quiet. But perhaps they are indeed closeted there. FWIW, I also thought that SV (though not SF) was full of firearm enthusiasts and prepper types, but that's probably an uninformed view from the other side of the country.

Nah, if you look at the third picture here: https://twitter.com/phl43/status/1286315129953452033

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#583

If you want to learn about the various types of people and how they relate to the world around them, study the French Revolution (in depth, not just a snippet). You will find every kind of person (in much more complex combinations than presented here), and how they participate/change/destroy/terrorize/etc. People today are no different we just have more technology.

It's pretty clear from PG's writing that he doesn't do a lot of reading.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#584
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it bizarre that comments like these seem to think the main battle ground for free speech is young people like myself "cancelling" people on twitter, when at the same time protestors are being arrested by secret police in the US. Like there is an authoritarian government right there for you to criticise, but you choose only to talk endlessly about tweets like "can white people make rice, or is it cultural appro…

You're engaging in a straw man of both sides and it makes me want to disregard your argument entirely. > you choose only to talk endlessly about tweets like... Do you really think that's what people are complaining about here? Not the professors being fired, the well known economists being forced to resign? There was a professor who lost his status running a residence hall because he was on the legal defense team for…

These protests are possibly the single largest protests for civil rights in the country's history. It is estimated that between 15 and 26 million Americans protested. Roughly 6% to 10% of the US adult population. If after almost 1 in 10 Americans protesting for the same thing you're pushing, you think you're less capable of succeeding at your job, I think you may want to question your approach.

And I don't mean that disrespectfully. I mean that in a sincere way. These protests were Americans saying that more of the same won't work. Yet another police sensitivity training class won't work. Yet one more less than lethal weapon won't work. Meeting with community leaders isn't sufficient. Raising the police budget so they can address this concerns isn't the answer. That's all been happening for a quarter of a century at this point and it's still fundamentally broken.

Almost 1 in 10 people are saying, we need a fundamentally different approach w.r.t. to policing. Police don't need to be called in for every mental health case, for every role of a social worker, for patroling schools and "arresting" kids because middle schoolers got into a fight.

The fact that out of ~20 million people, including plenty of outside agitators that disagreed with the protests and participated maliciously trying to discredit them, that the vast overwhelming majority have been peaceful is a testament.

The system is fundamentally broken, and has acquired sufficient power to resist all of the normal checks and balances. That's when protests is most useful - to raise awareness of what is truly happening and advocate for change.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/03/us/george-flo...

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Losing a job isn’t inherently bad. I’d only bad now because we’ve decided to arrange society around zero sum thinking.

It’s pretty inherently bad if losing your job means you can’t feed your kids or yourself.

Exactly. It’s absurd the consequences of losing your job are so fundamental. It’s time civilisation moved forward from this.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#587
This is so meandering and incoherent that it's hard to comment on, but the idea that silicon valley and finance types are "independent-minded" is downright laughable. It's pretty clear that those types are in lock-step with each other ideologically, maybe broadly split between east-coast and west-coast aesthetically.

This categorization is such nonsense. People in the hard sciences don't neatly fall into a type, and in fact is almost the opposite. In physics and math (maybe especially in math and physics), people are split right down the middle between conventional and independent. pg just doesn't seem to understand the internal politics of the sciences.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#588

If you want to learn about the various types of people and how they relate to the world around them, study the French Revolution (in depth, not just a snippet). You will find every kind of person (in much more complex combinations than presented here), and how they participate/change/destroy/terrorize/etc. People today are no different we just have more technology.

It's pretty clear from PG's writing that he doesn't do a lot of reading.

It's literally a meme where announces on Twitter their excited discovery of .

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#589

Very interesting take. This reminds me of Bob Altemeyer's work. He summed up his decades of research on authoritarianism in a free ebook at https://www.theauthoritarians.org/ . I invite everyone to read this, this is the single most important work of political science / social psychology I've ever read. Two categories he identifies, "authoritarian" and "social dominant" map to Graham's "passively conventional" and "a…

> when a narcissist gets a modicum of power, they can destroy an organisation from within

Or, as with Hitler, they can take over a formerly-democratic country and plunge them into war.

Re: The Four Quadrants of Conformism

#590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only rebuttal to PG in your comment is ARAMCO, which was a state-run org till recently, and is nothing like the companies PG is talking about. Try again.

There are at least 2 others. Reread and see if you can find them. Also, being state run doesn't mean you aren't innovative. It's a different game but still requires innovation. Companies don't grow and grow and grow without any innovation at all.

Single-purpose accounts aren't allowed on HN, nor are trollish usernames, so I've banned this account. I realize it's a borderline case, but a username like that is going to forever exert a trollish skew on every thread it posts to (especially on this site, given the particular celebrity you're referencing) and we've learned that it's better to deal with this earlier than later.

Happy to rename and unban it if you want to pick a more neutral username.

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

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