Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#581

Post by mc32 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:45 PM UTC

anotheryou wrote: post #574

kstenerud wrote: post #509

It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. T…

On the other hand even with this resignation he doesn't appologize for anything. He could even have made his point of thinking it's a misunderstanding and appologize, but didn't.

Kevin Hart apologized for some offensive jokes, he apologized as advised by the academy, and still got cancelled. Apologizing only serves to augment the conviction of a mob intent on finding fault.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#582

Post by raxxorrax » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:45 PM UTC

mantoto wrote: post #516

nabla9 wrote: post #343

RMS has called himself "borderline autistic". His socially clueless black and white thinking makes it look like he is far in the spectrum. RMS is anal about meanings of terms and their use. That's not working well in the current climate where words carry perceived intent. I find myself agreeing with RMS with most of the terminology and its use in this case. Women who tell stories about him paint a picture of lonely s…

He said things as a certain role model or in a setup where he shouldn't. It's just reasonable to remove him from those positions. Independly I find it very weird what he was saying nonetheless and for this he falls under a category of humans which I don't think are worth it to give such amount of support. There are other people out there which are worth it more. I stopped working with people who might be technical go…

He is the founder of the FSF. He advocated free software so that it is accessible to anyone.

But sure, he is probably a dick so let us remove them...

You know what? He actually probably isn't the easiest person to be around. Just saw him once and he certainly isn't the guy to move crowds.

But let us be certain that we have very distinct definitions of what constitutes "being a dick".

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#583

Post by cies » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:46 PM UTC

scoopertrooper wrote: post #552

kstenerud wrote: post #509

It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. T…

The guy has a long history endorsing pedophillia. Is it so hard to not endorse pedophilla? Can't that just be the one thing everybody agrees on?

See this recent interview with him, he addresses this topic and shows he changed his mind.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/17/richard_stallman_in...

> The guy has a long history endorsing pedophillia.

This is a big accusation, do you have source to back this up?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#584

Post by smallmancontrov » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:46 PM UTC

accntwithnoname wrote: post #178

robocat wrote: post #120

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? It is clear RMS was stunningly clueless to write anything about this, but surely we all know of similar engineers that would make a similar error? If everyone were held up to the same moral standard, we wouldn't have many people left in power! Just to be clear: I'm definitely not supporting hurting children (directly or indirectly) - I hope I'm not falling into the same tar…

This wasn't a witch hunt. This should have happened a long time ago. He is a creep, and has been problematic for years. “He literally used to have a mattress on the floor of his office. He kept the door to his office open, to proudly showcase that mattress and all the implications that went with it. Many female students avoided the corridor with his office for that reason…I was one of the course 6 undergrads who avoi…

Stallman sounds shady, but what's our basis for concluding that it wasn't for sleeping and was instead a creepy sex invitation? The word of a blogger who put words in Stallman's mouth and got him fired for them? I would appreciate a corroborating source, preferably one who didn't have as big of an ax to grind.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#585

Post by Frondo » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:46 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #526

kelnos wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can we please stop excusing bad behavior with some form of "oh because autism"? It's an insult to the many, many neuro-atypical people who don't say shitty, stupid things online, who don't act creepy around women, who don't have a sign on their MIT office that says "Knight for Justice (Also: Hot Ladies)", who don't have a gross mattress in their office where they encourage people to lie topless, who don't try to pres…

Attributing all his behavior to his autism is wrong, you're right, but autistic people do have social problems that can influence some behavior, like the ability to pick up social cues and learn something is wrong before hearing others say it. Also, you're doing a bait and switch, neuro-atypical covers a large swathe of people including autistic people. May be you're using it here as a mere synonym for "autistic" for…

I agree with both of you, and I think stallman also had the misfortune here to be so beloved that people are willing to give him a pass on a lot of the things he's said.

It's absolutely true that neuro-atypical people can learn from others, even if they can't pick up on social cues the way neurotypical people can. I'm guessing stallman just goes unchallenged on much of this stuff because of the lingering effects of the rockstar syndrome in tech, where "great men," geniuses, whatever, get cut a lot of slack because of their position in the industry.

It's only recently that I've seen a shift away from prizing our jerk 10x rockstars ("hey, he's so smart he can keep the whole codebase in his head!") to valuing better-behaved people. stallman seems like he'd be even more isolated than the typical one of those, with less chance to have the rough edges smoothed off in the rock tumbler of social interaction.

Again, not an excuse, but I'm more interested in, "how did we get here?" (where "here" is a decades-long public figure questioning the wrongness of pedophilia and making jokes like the "emacs virgin" thing well into the 2000s).

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#586

Post by KaiserPro » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:46 PM UTC

nguoi wrote: post #500

dexen wrote: post #447

Just as much as RMS was right[1], ESR was right[2]. The "cancel culture" is harming the free software movement by practicing human version of Microsoft's EEE[3]. The cancel culture enters the community, establishes interests groups, and starts knocking down prominent contributors. The demands are backed by angry crowds on social media rather than by contributions. It's time for us to defend each other, and to hold co…

This has nothing to do with 'SJWs' unless you're implying that 'statutory rape is bad' is a political stance of the far-left. I think it's much more likely you're clinging to buzzwords.

Indeed. Its not like he has decided to keep these opinions to himself. He has emailed a work mailing-list to spout this rubbish.

If I had posted this to my work mailing-list: https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-fec6ec21... then I'd have been bollocked. If I had a history of posting politics defending something that is pretty indefensible (especially in a role where I would be in loco parentis for minors)

I would have limited sympathy if this was expressed privately[1], but its not, its broadcast to all and sundry.

[1] but his position is frankly wrong. Its a big ask to justify sexual slavery.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#587

Post by kelnos » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:47 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #511

kelnos wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. I don't really see how this is so hard. Don't treat women poorly, in person or online. Don't talk authoritatively about subjects you don't understand, especially when those subjects (like rape and human trafficking) cause people intense pain. If you really do want to act this way, then you probably should exercise some self-censorship, and rethink your views, perhaps…

How does one learn what is wrong unless they speak out? You have to give people room to grow and forgive them when they fail.

You learn by first listening, and asking questions. No one expects everyone to be perfect out of the gate, but you at least have to make an effort.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#588

Post by magashna » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:48 PM UTC

smackay wrote: post #554

kstenerud wrote: post #509

It's unfortunate that scarlet letter offences are still alive and well in today's culture. Normally, when someone engages in behavior seen as offensive, the procedure is to pressure the person to apologize and mend his ways, and only get rid of him if he refuses to do so. But when a "scarlet letter" offence is involved, we jump straight to the punishment phase, removing the person outright with no judicial process. T…

For a little cultural orientation, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Letter While redemption is one of the themes in the book sadly the internet has not quite developed that level of sophistication so we are stuck with denouncement/punishment.

These days you might as well become a hermit or kill yourself because there is no penance great enough to be accepted by some people.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#589

Post by lostjohnny » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:48 PM UTC

Cacti wrote: post #545

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

Do you really need a PR person to know that suggesting underage sex is OK is a risky topic of conversation? Like, come on. This isn’t a subtle mine field here, it’s not rocket science, and any adult, particularly someone as nominally smart as RMS, should be aware that suggesting 14 year old girls (particularly ones with a non-zero probability of being _trafficked_!!) engaging in sex with 60 year old men is a risky fr…

Your view on the matter is the exact reason why we need more RMS around.

Are you suggesting that underage sex is not ok?

Because many people I know were having sex before coming to age.

He never suggested though that an old man having sex with a 14 years old girl was an ok thing.

People who wanted to read it, read it from his words, but he never said it.

So we have a bigger problem here: one cannot be pedantically correct or people will act as an angry mob on them and get away with it.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#590

Post by kelnos » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 12:49 PM UTC

drcode wrote: post #512

kelnos wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. I don't really see how this is so hard. Don't treat women poorly, in person or online. Don't talk authoritatively about subjects you don't understand, especially when those subjects (like rape and human trafficking) cause people intense pain. If you really do want to act this way, then you probably should exercise some self-censorship, and rethink your views, perhaps…

> Don't talk authoritatively about subjects you don't understand No one is allowed to have an opinion unless they're an "expert" (Sarcasm)

I get that you're being sarcastic, but... yes? It's fine to talk about topics where you're not an expert, but if you want to talk authoritatively about something, yes, I'd expect something at least approaching expert level.