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Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

economist.com

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Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#581

Post by lsc »

lazyjones wrote: post #551
lsc wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to watch a video. what sort of person do you think I am? I do have a reasonable knowledge of modern car safety features, and yes, high end (well, high trim level; these features are optional at additional cost on many cars I would call low end.) cars bought in the last few years have automatic braking systems that function reasonably well at low speeds, and that's a great thing that has probably saved m…

> I'm not going to watch a video. what sort of person do you think I am? I wish I knew what some people find so worthy of downvoting about suggesting to watch a crash test video that demonstrates the current state of pedestrian safety measures in cars. Or, what is scary/offensive about videos in general. But I suppose I don't need to understand every personality on the Internet...

I don't think you got downvoted for the jokey insults we're trading. (I also think it's pretty funny that I will go out of my way to avoid watching a video. What kind of person do you think I am?)

I think you got downvoted because it's ridiculous to suggest that current safety features make cars safe compared to most other common methods of transportation, especially for pedestrians and bicyclists.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#582

Post by hcurtiss »

mymythisisthis wrote: post #469
marble-drink wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just can't compare commuting on time alone. If you commute by car then 100% of that time is spent sitting down either driving or stuck in traffic. If you commute by public transport then maybe 50% of the time is spent reading, and 50% is spent walking. If you commute by bicycle then 100% of the time is spent cycling. It's a shame that study only shows a mean aggregate. I'd be interested to see the raw distributio…

You're right, mean aggregates don't mean much in this situation. The USA is too diverse of a country. NYC people commute by subway, and walking. Sure it's a long commute but you have ample opportunity to stop and do other things on the way home. If you live in Montana, you can commute home by car, in 10 minutes. But in Montana you are stuck at home, once you get there. What is needed is a 'happiness of commute' index…

For what it’s worth, there is plenty “to do” in those places too. I’m not sure what you mean by “stuck” — maybe your interests are different, but for those who like fishing after work, hiking a remote mountain, playing fetch with the dogs in a big field, or swimming in uncrowded streams — it’s a pretty awesome life. Sure it requires a car. At least to me it’s totally worth it.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#583

Post by eddieh »

avisser wrote: post #125
eddieh wrote: post #41

I live in a suburb of Seattle, I haven’t owned a car for about two years. It used to be owning a car was liberating, but now I think the day I sold my car was one of the most liberating days of my life.

How frequently do you "share" the road with cars? How many of your neighbors are car-less?

What do you mean "share" the road with cars? I walk almost everywhere. I have a Zipcar account that I use less than once a month and a bus pass that I use even less frequently. It is hard to say how many of my neighbors are car-less, most people seem to own cars, but not out of necessity — it is a pretty rich area.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#584

Post by jimbokun »

lazyjones wrote: post #97
jimbokun wrote: post #43

On vacation in Rome this summer, there is so much foot traffic on the major streets there is often no room for cars, and they need to inch forward until the people in front of them notice them and move out of the way. Seemed like almost all the cars were taxis, too. So navigating the city with a personal car seemed completely impractical. Same with Florence and Cinque Terre.

> So navigating the city with a personal car seemed completely impractical. YMMV, I spent my last 2 holidays in Italy with my car and went pretty much everywhere, including the old town of Siena, the center of Florence, Lucca by car. Italy is exceptionally car-friendly, but some tourists seem to be afraid to go.

> the center of Florence

You are truly a madman (or madwoman).

From what I hear, traveling between cities in Italy by car is pretty convenient. But driving along side all the people walking in the middle of Firenze streets does not sound like the kind of stress I want while on vacation.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#585

Post by thex10 »

davesmith1983 wrote: post #549
thex10 wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As if us public transit users aren't living in reality. Yeah okay bud. - Public transit is publicly funded. For improvements in safety, cleanliness etc to happen, the systems need (public) money. But you will never pay fares because you're scared to take transit, and you probably would never vote in favor of a ballot measure to allocate more tax money to transit because you happen have a car and don't believe improve…

> Public transit is publicly funded. For improvements in safety, cleanliness etc to happen, the systems need (public) money. All you are admitting here is that the Government can't provide a compelling alternative to a more expensive form of transport. > But you will never pay fares because you're scared to take transit, and you probably would never vote in favor of a ballot measure to allocate more tax money to tran…

Based on your response I'd say my opinion's no more biased than yours!

> All you are admitting here is that the Government can't provide a compelling alternative to a more expensive form of transport. > Why vote to increase spending on something that doesn't benefit you? People won't and you won't convince anyone. This is an unrealistic standard you expect of other people, plus the high and mighty tone you are using won't win people over.

I really don't get why so many folks insist on positioning Government as some sort of "other" entity, as if its functioning isn't directly affected by voters. Anyways, why support transit? Because it _does_ benefit you as a car user but you and your leadership refuses to see it. It's well documented that improving alternate modes of transportation helps alleviate traffic congestion by shifting some drivers to other modes, thus producing less wear and tear on the roads(and your car) and helping drivers get to where they're going faster and safer. Sorry, that's how it works.

> No I don't want to have to deal with possibility of violence, nutcases and other general unpleasantness so I won't take the train

I mean, sure. That's your right. But you _have_ an alternative, whereas many folks have no other choice but to risk the trip, so how exactly is not supporting transit not a "fuck you, I got mine" attitude?

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#586

Post by jcranberry »

eb0la wrote: post #304
pencillr wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I moved to the USA for a few months from Europe, I was surprised by the fact that you simply can't walk to places. There are so huge spaces between things except for maybe city centers. (I was mostly in CA and FL)

I've been in Houston this year and it shocked me how difficult is to move there without a car. I was saved by Uber and Lyft many times just because both my hotel and the office were really far away from public transport.

I wouldn't be surprised if Houston is the worst city in the nation when it comes to "walkability". It's so spread out.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#587

Post by lacampbell »

maxsilver wrote: post #51
lacampbell wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then, wealthy people tear down the functional public transportation between the urban city and the rest of the metro (mostly roads and freeways), and replace them with pretty but function-less "public transit" (mostly buses in the midwest). I don't understand... you are saying they replace roads and freeways and replace them with buses? That's like replacing a glass with water. It makes no sense.

Yes. This is done either for public use (tearing out a lane of public travel, and replacing it with a lane for buses only) or privatizing the street altogether (tearing out a lane, and replacing it with front yards, or restaurant seating, or whatever).

So what you meant to say was that they re-paint existing roads to make it harder for cars and easier for busses. Not that they pull out a road (a piece of infrastructure) and replace it with a bus (a vehicle).

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#588

Post by konart »

shalmanese wrote: post #259
konart wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't thing this is what codebolt was talking about. If you can one kid - there is no problem really. Walk him or her to school in the morning, ask grandmother to bring them back etc. When you have more than one - it is entrily possible they will end up going to different schools and after the school one of them had to go to the music shool and the other one to his hockey team or something etc etc. You simply can't…

Why would they need to walk 40 minutes? In countries with good public school systems, all of the public schools are equally acceptable so you just send them to the nearest one which is generally less than a mile walk away.

I live in Russia and we have different school for example. >Common >Lyceum >Gymnasium

Lyceum and Gymnasium will give you better programs, teachers, resources, special subjects etc. They have fewer seats too obviously. And you don't have too many of them.

Common schools why being generally the same - also usually have different education levels. So before sendingg your kid to one of them you do a research - what kind of teachers does the school has, does it have football field or pool, maybe even you'll look into what have become of it's graduates.

When I was in school (1995-2005) The nearest school was... okay. It wasn't bad, but you don't really expect anything of it. Half boys older than 14 were smoking already, girls not giving two shits about studies, teachers who would just to their 9 to 17 routine. So I was attending Gymnasium 20 minutes away if you take a bus.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#589

Post by konart »

oefrha wrote: post #252
konart wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't thing this is what codebolt was talking about. If you can one kid - there is no problem really. Walk him or her to school in the morning, ask grandmother to bring them back etc. When you have more than one - it is entrily possible they will end up going to different schools and after the school one of them had to go to the music shool and the other one to his hockey team or something etc etc. You simply can't…

As have been pointed out by multiple people, kids are perfectly capable of taking public transit themselves. Kids under ten might need to be accompanied by a guardian, but there are usually two parents in a household, and some grandparents will help, too. Caretakers can be hired in certain cases. Some family “pool” their kids together too, not unlike in the U.S. where parents would take turns to drive neighbors’ kids…

>As have been pointed out by multiple people, kids are perfectly capable of taking public transit themselves.

Sure, after a certain age.

>Kids under ten might need to be accompanied by a guardian, but there are usually two parents in a household, and some grandparents will help, too. Caretakers can be hired in certain cases.

This works out well in a well developed coutry I suppose. In Russia, for example, most people won't have this kind of options. You want your kid safe? You take your kid to the school yourself (before 10).

And again - I've describe certain cases, not just one. We've never had a car too, but for some cases this is a necessity.

Re: Europe is edging towards making post-car cities a reality

#590

Post by jillesvangurp »

baud147258 wrote: post #430
jillesvangurp wrote: post #246

Most big cities have a majority of the population without cars at this point. These cities naturally favor more legislation against cars and this is causing city administrators to over time introduce more restrictions for cars. E.g. many Dutch cities got a head start on this to make more room for bicyclists in the nineteen seventies already. Simple measures include raising prices for parking and parking permits, intr…

> You can drive to the downtown area and expect to find street parking I don't think I've ever seen a French city where most streets, including those downtown, don't have street parking. Most of the time it's not free, but it's always there.

I've driven around quite a bit in the south of France. My experience is quite different. Even in smaller towns. E.g Avignon, Lyon, Marseille, Toulouse don't have a lot of street parking in the downtown areas. Berlin is different in the sense that you can drive right up to the Alexander Platz and actually have a decent chance of actually parking your car near by. Also not for free obviously. That would be the same as driving to e.g. the Arc de Triomf in Paris or Picadilly circus in London and finding a place to park. It's been a while since I've been too either place but I don't think this is a thing.
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