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Terminating Service for 8Chan

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Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#581

Post by kelnos »

internet_user wrote: post #380
chx wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limiting who and how can experiment with anthrax doesn't seem like a limitation on science -- it looks sanity to me. Since ideas are just as viral and as deadly there is nothing inherently wrong with limiting the spread of some.

Give it a bit more time, and anyone with two brain cells will be able to experiment with anthrax in their garage. What then?

So what? It'd still be illegal, and you do the same thing to disincentivize garage anthrax as you do with any other illegal act: the threat of prison.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#582

Post by kelnos »

kuzehanka wrote: post #425
ALittleLight wrote: post #91

When I was younger I thought I was a few speech absolutist. Then I went to where was free speech was absolute and saw what was discussed. Now I favor moderation.

You're in favour of censorship. Moderation is keeping discussion civil and on-topic, which interestingly enough mostly happens by itself in 'absolute free speech' spaces. What you support is the selective suppression of ideas that you don't like. Don't call it moderation. Call it by its name. Censorship. Cloudflare isn't 'moderating' 8chan. It's deplatforming it and enacting censorship.

> Moderation is keeping discussion civil and on-topic, which interestingly enough mostly happens by itself in 'absolute free speech' spaces.

The entire topic of this post -- 8chan -- is a fine counterexample to your idea there.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#583

Post by AllegedAlec »

slg wrote: post #445
madamelic wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>When I was younger I thought I was a few speech absolutist. Then I went to where was free speech was absolute and saw what was discussed. Now I favor moderation. How do you determine what speech is "good" and what speech is "bad"? I feel like there is no absolute way to determine this. (I am being genuine in asking, I want to know what caused this change and how you see "free speech") All speech is good in my opinio…

>How do you determine what speech is "good" and what speech is "bad"? Speech becomes bad when it infringes on the rights of another group or individual. Where that specific line is drawn does vary, but the underlying principle is the same and one that seemingly everyone agrees with. The US happens to be near the absolute extreme to where this line is drawn. Whether you think hate speech infringes on the rights of the…

> However, hate speech on sites like 8chan does often lead to speech that incites violence.

Citation needed.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#584

Post by nextmemorandum »

ketzo wrote: post #573
rlonn wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but how can anyone say "what kind" of free speech...? Don't you see that labeling or discriminating between "free speech of type A, allowed" and "free speech of type B, disallowed" defeats the whole notion of "free"? Somehow people tend to think that their own discrimination isn't, while others is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

That does not change the fact that people have the natural right of freedom of speech.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#585

Post by ryanlol »

SheinhardtWigCo wrote: post #178
King-Aaron wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They are practically a utility. LOL. They are not.

They kinda are. DDoS protection is only viable at massive scale, but is table stakes for any website with content that someone out there might find objectionable.

lol.

There are lots of providers with massive DDoS protection capacity specializing in hosting illegal or otherwise questionable content, they just charge more than cloudflare.

Botnet C&Cs, cybercrime forums and card shops all need hosting and face massive attacks. Somehow I never hear the operators of those complaining.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#586

Post by _r2gl »

ptah wrote: post #579
Lazare wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The freedom to spread cheap hate, fake news and bigotry against minorities? I'm sorry but moderating such offenses isn't a limitation to free speech. For the same reason why, if you start shouting nig or monkey to black people in a shopping mall, the police is likely to intervene and take you away - and I don't think that any sane person would argue that they're violating your freedom of speech. Popper taught us th…

yes, i think this is a serious flaw in the US constitution. other countries are more sensible and reasonable when it comes to dealing with hate speech

Not a flaw, intent. Freedom implies freedom.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#587

Post by kelnos »

kuzehanka wrote: post #453
481092 wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Absolute free speech" is like anarchism. I've yet to meet someone who fully practices them both yet they will preach it and condemn others with their self-righteous hypocrisy. Would you want me to come up to your kid and cuss him out for no reason? Your mom? I wouldn't even have to use foul language to bother them. Any number of reasons I could really annoy you or your loved ones with free speech and in some cases r…

Free speech is a hard requirement for democracy, and a hard requirement of free speech is accepting the freedom of speech you find objectionable. Your nation was founded upon this principle as a cornerstone, and yet you have regressed back to ochlocracy. It wasn't even 100 years ago that any discussions of LGBT welfare were censored the same way by people with the same mindset. > Would you want me to come up to your…

We're not talking about a government shutting down 8chan. We're talking about one (of many) providers being unwilling to rebroadcast 8chan's content. (Rebroadcast, not host. Their hosting provider is still hosting them.)

I understand people's dislike for any kind of censorship, because it's immensely difficult (impossible, perhaps) to trust the people doing the censoring to be free of bias and to always do the right thing. And I agree with that!

But let's not pretend that all ideas are equal and great. That's just a flat-out falsehood. Some ideas don't deserve to see the light of day. And sure, it's difficult to trust any group to make that judgment. But doing nothing isn't a great option, either.

Don't get me wrong: I don't want to see a government making things like 8chan illegal. But I also don't want to see a government requiring that companies like Cloudflare rebroadcast 8chan's content against their will.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#588

Post by thinkingemote »

quietthrow wrote: post #122

How come Twitter is not is trouble for enabling (or being A loudspeaker for) people that riles up other people, fuels their fire and so on. Trying to understand this from a ethics and philosophical perspective. Appreciate your comments.

Twitter does not have a single point of failure, a person who has done this kind of thing before.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#589

Post by mort96 »

arrrg wrote: post #571
sytelus wrote: post #205

This is the same argument cake shops make against taking order from gay people. I do believe that so-called manifesto is mind-numbingly dumb, fact-free and it is dangerous in the sense it will inspire more violence against innocent people. But that precisely what makes it a good test case for asking some fundamental questions. Can commercial businesses with deep reach, pricing power and critical function deny service…

[flagged]

I don't believe it should make much difference if someone was born gay or not. It's not because gay people were born gay that they should be accepted, but rather that there's nothing wrong with being gay. If someone somehow chose to become gay, they deserve as much acceptance as someone born gay.

The difference is that being attracted to people of your own gender doesn't negatively affect anyone, while nazism as an ideology explicitly wants to hurt certain groups of people.

Re: Terminating Service for 8Chan

#590

Post by _r2gl »

arrrg wrote: post #569
baybal2 wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you tell what country do you live in? I live in China, a textbook totalitarian state. What you say is awfully similar to what CPC puts as their justification of censorship. The prevailing narrative among the "dotcom" community in the West, and what you have said wrote is very similar to their position.

That is why context is important. The dream of the perfect context free golden rule does not exist. We have to pay attention and make hard decisions. None of this is simple.

The golden rule does exist, freedom of speech.
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