We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#581

Post by chrisweekly » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:10 AM UTC

swoongoonz wrote: post #502

rubicon33 wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. And they're missing the point that this isn't 1985 anymore. A high school student with a week of JavaScript and HTML could write AirBnB. Or at least, JavaScript and similar languages make programming much, much easier (and hence the barrier to entry much easier). As coding difficulty drops, and supply increases, the net effect will be a much higher demand for jobs than supply. And that's exactly where big tech w…

These kids would be competing with incredibly prolific web developers who not only output an insane amount of code themselves but manage OSS at massive scales. One example is Jordan Harband, responsible for: 1. Enzyme, the current top used React testing library 2. NVM, kind of the only game in town for managing node versions 3. qs, a tool for converting search to json objects and back 4. tc39 proposals, the committee…

nit: `n` is way better than `nvm`

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#582

Post by ben509 » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:13 AM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #466

abawany wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to the 'sucker' anecdote, when I was young and stupid (at least I am not young anymore), I was contacted by a NYC recruiter looking to hire for Bloomberg. Here was his tack to extract salary information: "being a financial company, it is required for us to know what you currently make." On this aspect, I think I know better now, hopefully.

Yeh right :-)

It's $125,000[1] for a violation of the law.

1: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/chapter-1.page#8-126

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#583

Post by mooreds » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:13 AM UTC

ScottFree wrote: post #411

mooreds wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We switched from a random set of questions to a take home coding assignment (that we compensate for) and a discussion of said coding assignment. It's pretty clear what kind of work someone will do when you can look at work they've done.

What would you do if a candidate turned down your home coding assignment, but gave you one of the coding assignments he completed for a different job interview?

Hmm. We had one candidate who had an exceptional resume and walked us through an open source project that he wrote. It was an adequate substitute. We wouldn't compensate for a project like you mentioned but the real goal of the exercise is to gain an understanding of how you approach a problem and use your tools.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#584

Post by mooreds » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:14 AM UTC

soneca wrote: post #198

mooreds wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We switched from a random set of questions to a take home coding assignment (that we compensate for) and a discussion of said coding assignment. It's pretty clear what kind of work someone will do when you can look at work they've done.

Just took a look at Culture Foundry, seems great, will apply! :)

Excellent, looking forward to hearing from you!

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#585

Post by geuszb » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:14 AM UTC

meddlepal wrote: post #188

b212 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an American thing? I live in Eastern Europe and make decent buck here (close to 5000 EUR/mo after taxes in a country where you can cover all expenses under 1000 EUR/mo). I never had any trouble getting quality work in my country but a few times I got approached by companies from the US and oh boy, weeks of tiring recrutation process and the pay was ALWAYS worse than local. I feel like they do it on purpose ma…

I don't know about the EU business culture, but in the US you are expected to negotiate. You really have to fight for every penny you want...

You can negotiate for a reasonable increase but if an offer comes in at half of what you're making, negotiation is a waste of time for both parties.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#586

Post by jkaplowitz » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:17 AM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #575

jkaplowitz wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the balance California now strikes: while employers can't ask about salary history, if a candidate voluntarily shares the information unsolicited, they can verify it and make the offer conditional on the verification passing. So, California employers won't be able to avoid a complaint if they press for a current (as opposed to desired) salary number and disadvantage or reject the candidate on that basis, but t…

> While I definitely don't want to discriminatorily let low salaries have a bad knock-on effect at subsequent jobs, I also don't want to hire or work with liars. You may not "want" the discrimination, but if you don't allow everyone to say the magic words that get them treated fairly, "I was paid the market rate", you're encouraging the discrimination. I think it's pretty easy to make a moral defense for telling a li…

These laws put no restrictions on what candidates can say, absolutely none whatsoever. They just affect the employer side of the conversation.

Employers in California (and NYC and a few other places) cannot ask about salary history, but they can ask what salary the candidate wants, and the candidate can decide on their own initiative to share salary history info. If candidates share such info voluntarily and unsolicited, employers can use (and verify) it.

So any candidate who wants to can say those market rate words you quoted. Similar phrasings that answer the still- permissible "what salary are you looking for" question also work fine.

One of the most likely wordings to get a good outcome without losing respect is: "I want whatever number is market rate for someone with my skills and experience at an employer like yours. I'll make inquiries through my professional network to learn what's appropriate so that I can consider your offer in the correct context, and I'll try to be fair to the company as well as myself in the resulting negotiation."

Notice how that doesn't depend on salary history info at all.

For California specifically - not currently the other places with this type of law - employers must also share the "pay scale" with "applicants" upon their "reasonable request" (these phrases have been clarified legislatively in sensible ways). So that's even more help in avoiding discrimination while staying honest.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#587

Post by techplex » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:18 AM UTC

guardincress wrote: post #556

I've been applying to jobs for about 5 months now and I haven't even managed to get a single technical interview, let alone a job offer. Can somebody please take a look at my linkedin and tell me if I'm stupid (www.linkedin.com/in/niyeturner)? Honestly if I'm completely out of my league and just need to quit making software I just want to hear it from somebody, rather than just all of a sudden being ignored. I guess…

Have you tried Tripplebyte https://triplebyte.com/iv/TpOcf1q/cp (referral link). I found their interview process to be quite helpful in my job search.

Can you add any bullet points to the experience you have on your LinkedIn? Talk about what role you had and what things you have accomplished in those roles even though they are relatively new.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#588

Post by geuszb » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:19 AM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #426

bufferoverflow wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US salaries are on a whole new level when it comes to senior programmers. $200K+ base is normal, if you're good. $150/hr for consulting gigs is also normal if you're good. So your $5K after taxes wouldn't even register on my radar.

These are not normal base salaries even for senior programmers in the bay area. The 60th percentile for senior software engineers is around $180k per year in the Bay Area. Total compensation is commonly $200k or more, easily, but not base. Outside of the Bay Area, even in NY, Chicago, etc., base salaries are lower. In most places they're much lower--below $100k.

In large companies, there's another factor to consider, which is that if you're a few years into the company, the stock grants that you received a few years back and that are still vesting now are now possibly worth a lot more... your total yearly comp increases quite a bit if your company stock did well for the few years you've been with them.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#589

Post by areyouseriousxx » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:23 AM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #515

areyouseriousxx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it strange, as software developers, that we discuss the effects on automation all the time, but no one seems to understand that automation has made searching for new employees incredibly inexpensive and efficient compared to the past. So in technical roles there are a lot of companies that are always hiring. Recruiters work for free until they find you someone and placing job listings online is so inexpensive…

Searching for new employees is incredibly inexpensive == I now know you don't do any interviewing or hiring. Eg when we post a senior eng job on eg glassdoor, stackoverflow, or linkedin, we are deluged with resumes. Just the ad easily costs $250. Then we get applications who ignore that we don't sponsor visas, clearly don't have the skills required (6 year SAP programmer who wants to be a senior fullstack eng? No tha…

$1.5k is a significant expense for your organization? A $250 ad listing is a lot for your organization?

I'm sorry, but this sounds very strange from someone claiming to know about interviewing and hiring.

You need an engineering manager to filter out SAP programmers who want to be a senior full stack engineer? You need an engineering manager to figure out someone only has 1.5 years of experience?

How many people are you interviewing? How many positions are you filling? Seems like you would realistically need about 5-10 phone screens plus 1 or 2 in person interviews to fill a position. 3 if your phone screens were really off the mark.

I'm actually curious who hired you. Because this sounds like dismal operations management. Seriously, you seem to be a great example of how much a bad hire can cost a company.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#590

Post by jkaplowitz » Sun, Apr 21, 2019, 2:27 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #566

jkaplowitz wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the balance California now strikes: while employers can't ask about salary history, if a candidate voluntarily shares the information unsolicited, they can verify it and make the offer conditional on the verification passing. So, California employers won't be able to avoid a complaint if they press for a current (as opposed to desired) salary number and disadvantage or reject the candidate on that basis, but t…

Inflating one's salary on a resume was so common it's like the Tour de France - you have to dope to even get on the field, because everyone does it, and everyone expects it. So I just sidestepped all that bs by including a paystub. And the resulting offer was a nice raise. > I also don't want to hire or work with liars I'm with you there. Lying on a resume is an automatic "no hire" from me. By including a paystub, I…

Sure. I just realize that so many people have been underpaid for no good reason, whether due to negotiating inexperience or discrimination or simply coming from a different geography or the nonprofit sector, that requiring pay history is not something I can support as a routine requirement.

Verifying any pay history info that is provided, however, seems fine to me. This could certainly be via pay stub, or it could be by contacting the former employer with candidate consent after the official offer letter is issued and accepted (worded to be revocable if the verification fails).