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Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

projekte.sueddeutsche.de

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Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#581

Post by peoplewindow »

bmomb wrote: post #108
sschueller wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same goes for US individuals living abroad not having any business relations or even holdings in the US. Yet they are required to file and pay US taxes in addition to local taxes.

But as an US citizen you still use some US benefits like the army and international protection, right? (I'm not from USA or currently living abroad but i think that is "fair")

The USA charges people for evacuation at military rates. There are cases of people being bankrupted by this and wishing they'd not been "rescued".

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#582

Post by speleding »

> In Germany, Apple is estimated (you don’t publish the exact figures) to have generated revenues in the billions last year – of which it paid 25 million euros in taxes.

I assume that Apple paid 20% German VAT on those billions, as well as paid taxes on the salaries of the Germans it employed, and probably several other taxes such as environmental tax on packaging. The article raises an important issue but it's disingenuous to focus just on the profit tax, which is a highly malleable number in the hands of an accomplished accountant.

But since they do focus on profit tax, they should have made it clear why profit on a phone designed in the US and built in China should fall to Germany, and they fail to do that.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#583

Post by angel_j »

Whose torch are these media co's carrying? I'm not so quick to swallow a newspaper editor's moral indignation about taxes. Much ado about symptoms, not so much a cause.

Our governments waste so much money, even Apple's lost taxes are a drop in the bucket. Should we all join in crying about that loss? We know 90% of it would go to military and corrupt, partisan, spending.

I say spank the news media along with the government, for being partners in the inertia. At least Apple innovates.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#584

Post by 0xffff2 »

qznc wrote: post #526
simonh wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The fix can certainly involve appealing to morals and human responsibility... Are you really suggesting the management and board of every major company in the world should meet to decide how much tax they should choose to pay each year? Even if they did, where should they choose to pay it? Should Apple Pay more tax in China where the phones are assembled? In America where they are designed? In the countries where th…

My (ultra-simplistic) idea would to only tax land and VAT. Abolish all other taxes. Unfortunately, governments like fine-grained taxes because it gives them the illusion of control.

I'm American, and thus not terribly familiar with the details of VAT. Is there anything about how it works that makes it less regressive than a simple sales tax? Sales tax as it exists in most US states is just about the most regressive tax scheme imaginable.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#585

Post by peoplewindow »

gaius wrote: post #576
peoplewindow wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Police and roads aren't services provided to Apple. They're services provided to you . I've never once seen a corporation travelling down a road - has anyone else? The only government services corporations specifically use re legal services like courts and patent offices. Those have fees attached and in the USA the PTO is actually a profit center, so tax is irrelevant. There's no moral argument for taxing artificial…

Tee hee, do iPhones teleport all the way from China into your hand then?

They fly here. On privately built and owned planes.

They are then moved a short distance by trucks that pay for their own road costs via fuel taxes and tolls. Finally, I drive to the shop, paying my own taxes along the way to pick one up.

At no point is corporation tax paying any part in the transport of goods like iPhones.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#586

Post by Swinx43 »

haspok wrote: post #562
Swinx43 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a common misconception due to tax law changes in recent years. It used to be the case that a UK contractor paying themselves through this structure was significantly better off due to the large amount of dividend tax credits that were available. So let me outline how this works these days as I run up against this argument a lot. 1) Any income that comes into the UK Ltd company is taxed at the corporate tax ra…

Two things to add: - A £500 daily rate is very attainable when you work as a contractor in London. a £105k salary for the same type of work - not so much... I would argue that most people don't really have a choice and they HAVE to become contractors to get that kind of money. - Nobody is forcing you to take ALL the money on your company account and pay it to yourself as a dividend. You can leave most of it there, or…

You are correct on both of the points you raise.

The example was simplistic by taking all of the dividends out to make it a straightforward comparison with a salaried employee who also has to take all of their and thus do not get to defer their tax.

Being able to choose when you pay tax is one of the biggest advantages of working through a UK Ltd company. But by choosing when you pay you hardly avoid paying tax. The bill will be due sooner or later.

As for legal ways to reduce the corporation tax you pay, I would love to hear more as the options I know of would be to setup pension contributions or doing a voluntary liquidation. (which is only an option for the day you decide to stop contracting as you are not allowed to be a director of a UK limited company for 2 years after completing the liquidation)

Every contractor accountant I have spoken with has given the same advice. So if what you are doing is legal I would be interested to hear who your accountant is.

Always remember that your accountant won't be the one that HMRC comes after if you followed dodgy advice.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#587

Post by abecedarius »

peoplewindow wrote: post #580
nhaehnle wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't actually prevent you from leaving though, and is probably seen by many (most?) people as entirely fair.

It prevents you from leaving if you can't afford to pay the tax. And lol, how is an exit tax even remotely fair? Would you have described the USSR's exit visas as fair too? The US acts like it owns its citizens as property. The tax regime around citizenship is dangerously close to crossing the line to slavery.

Indeed. Almost a quarter of my net worth? The income from the remainder would still be taxed in the new jurisdiction.

Slaves in antiquity could commonly buy their freedom, too.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#588

Post by dalore »

chx wrote: post #565
styx31 wrote: post #80

What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. But there are these big companies which can afford to create offshore companies/holding just to evade some tax system, and lower their tax rate. So, what? The tax rate of a country is now "artificial", because it will never be applied to all revenues from all companies, because th…

> What annoys me the most is that, as a small company, I can't evade from my country tax system. I pay the taxes. All of them, at full rate. I am not even annoyed by that. I am an immigrant into Canada. We sort of made a deal: you let me into a place where I can live a safe and free life and I will pay my taxes leading to that. I stand by that deal. I had a company in Gibraltar (which, by the way, was completely lega…

A tax on earnings? Do you mean revenue?

I think that's a bit insane and lot's of business wouldn't be able to survive. If I buy something for $100 and sell it for $110 I now have to pay tax on the $110 amount rather then the $10 amount, increasing my tax tremendously.

For businesses with lot's of inventory that would be murder.

Re: Paradise Papers: Dear Tim Cook

#589

Post by sseveran »

DomreiRoam wrote: post #503
sseveran wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just downright false. There is an entire field inside the tax world called transfer pricing. You cannot just transfer significant IP to a foreign entity for $1 and expect that you will only need to pay tax on that $1. The IRS will come up with its own determination of what the value of the transferred asset is if it disagrees with your valuation and assess taxes based upon that. Now companies and the IRS freq…

If we had a way to have a realistic transfer pricing we wouldn't have the result that we have now where systematically groups make the biggest profits in countries with low taxation. If we look Apple group, their most productive employee are all based in small island nations. So on an Iphone, conceived in the US, made in china, sold in EU the biggest share of the profits is made in Bermuda or tax heaven?

I don't see what is not realistic about it. We are talking about things which are incredibly difficult to value because there is no market for them to set a competitive price. In your Apple example the most productive employees are all in the US not island nations. If the money is being held by on overseas subsidiary then Apple can't use the money as it otherwise would if it could freely cross borders.
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