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New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

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Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#581

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Shameless plug for something I wrote today, in case you’re wondering what companies use it for and what you can do about that “Developer employee cheatsheet: WTF is Salary Benchmarking?“ https://codeformore.com/developer-employee-cheatsheet-wtf-sa...

Interesting read, thanks. How does one go from "senior engineer" to "architect"? Any tips?

Stop writing code and start writing documents. Use lots of buzzwords and emerging technologies.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#582
post #424

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Wouldn't applying for credit based on "aspirational" finances be fraud?

Not a lawyer, but for major credit lines lenders would generally want to see a few pay stubs and even tax returns, so seems like they’re using the data from the application form as a ballpark figure anyways.

Not a lawyer, but they left their door unlocked, so I think it should be legal to just walk off with their stuff.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#583

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Calling this a gender issue is like saying "we're raising the minimum wage to help women". The law benefits male employees just as much as it benefits women. Lawmakers and PR teams just like to spin everything as addressing the gender gap to appeal to society-wide damsel in distress syndrome.

Not sure about that. It helps anyone who has been systematically discriminated in hiring against over time. When you start a new job, it's not uncommon for your new employer to offer you a salary that's X% higher than your old one, using that as a base. If your old salary was lower due to discrimination, you'd start with a lower base, and would get less in the new job than someone who was not previously discriminated…

Not even outright discrimination.

Data shows women tend to do much less negotiation than men. If you didn't negotiate your first salary that can compound for the rest of your career even if you negotiate later salaries.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#584

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I'll disregard the use of merit, but how do you measure performance to make this claim? Im sure there are less performant lawyers in america that have a higher pay than performant lawyers in europe. AFAIK high salaries in the U.S. dont come at the expense of low salaries of the low performing. Doctors have constrained supply. Lawyers have a sort of costrained supply (your degree will determine your employment). U.S.…

I think people would find disparate outcomes among gender/race/etc. and claim discrimination. This will lead to more uniformity as employers try to avoid legal and political liability, however unfounded the claims of discrimination are. The not-so-subtle point that unequal outcomes don't mean discrimination seems to be totally lost in political discourse. You're right that doctors and lawyers are not great examples f…

> If everyone knows what everyone makes, it becomes much harder to give an excellent employee more money. Everyone thinks they deserve a raise, so now a manager has to confront the rest of the team when he gives one person a raise. Envy is a very powerful force.

I think economic modeling moves towards the opposite direction. First, people assume that other people make and still have that envy, and in that assumption they make mistakes. But there are severely underpaid people that would immediately get a better deal.

There are other interesting externality is that knowing what people make would allow people to jump jobs a lot clearer. One of my crusades in public opinion in argentina is that the salaries of college graduates is absolutely unknown, making it impossible to gauge how valuable each college degree is worth. Hence, lots of people commit to dead-end careers. If it were known how much the graduates made, less people would go there, and more people would go to the paying ones.

Same with jobs: knowing other company pays substantially more will move you, increasing the salary of the low paying companies and lowering the salary of the high paying companies.

In a very naive way, the lack of information prevents market efficiency, because if the information where there, people would do more and different trades. And this is algo good for companies in the long run, because they would more effectively attract the appropriate talent.

Think of it as any other market: housing for example. Is housing clearer or worse by having house sale prices open?

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#585

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But you can always use it to your leverage too, I have lied about my previous salary before and it worked out great.

Is there any reason that you can't continue to do that?

Because your current employer may report salary information to one of those data brokers like Equifax and your prospective employer requests that information for verification. Lying on a job application is a good way to get get denied the position.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#586

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Because every time I told a candidate a range, I'd hear back "ok so the salary is {{max_salary}}, cool." Nobody in the contracting world wants to undersell themselves. If somebody on the team is getting 75/hr, everybody better get 75/hr or hell gets raised. This is why the O&G industry out in Houston pushes back hard against any salary-sharing.

California employers will be required to give a range upon request under this same law. So might as well get it out of the way up front.

That's amazing! There's nothing more frustrating than looking at job postings and having no clue what they expect to offer me until I go through the ENTIRE interview process. It's going to be a huge time waster if they won't meet my salary requirements. I'd like to know that information upfront.

Too bad I don't live in CA.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#587

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Ok, but know that completely rational nations have decided to go with OPs way(like Norway)

"completely rational nations" Ah yes, of course, Norway is a rational nation and others are not. For whatever value of "rational" there is. Maybe you mean Norway exceptionally tightening immigration rules after the Swedish terror attacks? Or is it just public reporting of salary you like so much?

I like tightening immigration too. I wasn't saying that the US or other western nation wasn't rational. I was just saying that other countries that have their shit together as well make the exact opposite decision about salary transparency(or more correctly tax transparency).

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#588

For comparison, in Finland all salaries are made public by the tax authority. Annual salaries are printed in the newspaper annually and traffic ticket fines are proportionate with your income.

Before the tax info was public, they still fined people based on their income; they just expected people to tell the truth. They have even gone back and re-fined rich people who they found to have lied (back before officers could look up the info in real-time).

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#589
post #86

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About to get a hell of a lot harder for contract recruiters to match candidates with expected salary, and match companies with candidates that fall within the salary bounds. Only solution is probably to stress to their clients to just set a max salary and expect to pay it.

how about telling the candidates in front that the expected salary is in the range of x-y.

I want this too, as an employee hoping to work with other qualified employees. We just extended an offer to a guy who wasn't well qualified for the role merely because he was the only candidate who requested a salary in the range for the position. The skill set was actually pretty demanding, and the amount budgeted was likely below market. Desperation hire.

Re: New law bans California employers from asking applicants their prior salary

#590

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>>But have you thought about why you feel this way? Yes. I don't want to increase my attractiveness regarding a house robbery, as I live well below my means in a developing neighborhood, amongst other reasons. I very much understand the concept of leverage and have no problems privately discussing my salary amongst groups that I trust. That doesn't include the entire Internet.

A lawsuit is a bigger risk than a house robbery, IMO. A big reason why people don't get sued is because they aren't a defendant you can get a lot of money out of. Publicly showing off a top 2% salary or asset level will change that. Like, if you own your house outright, it's often worthwhile to get a HELOC without ever drawing from it. That way, when an attorney tries to figure out if you're worth suing, it doesn't l…

I just got umbrella insurance to cover the "worth being sued" part. It's very cheap and well worth protecting my assets and my future earnings.
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