Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#581

Post by ThisIs_MyName » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 4:37 PM UTC

pjmlp wrote: post #422

boardwaalk wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But OpenGL wasn't either. I'd like to hear concrete examples of how it couldn't be made workable. There are already validation layers that do a pretty good job of checking for bad usage. Especially since things like NaCl exist(ed) which are inarguably lower level and still safe. I think it's folly to create a whole new API before evaluating the option of using Vulkan.

Which is a good example why I don't have any issues with native code on OpenGL ES 3.x mobiles, while Chrome with WebGL is just choppy and dropping frames left and right.

Naw, that's happening because you have a JS thread doing everything. Native code on OpenGL ES is structured very differently.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#582

Post by hutzlibu » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 4:39 PM UTC

lucideer wrote: post #575

hutzlibu wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is something different, to not "keep up" with full priority, than to intentionally sabotage WebStandards ...

The UIWebView is an interesting example. They released significant performance advances in the iOS Safari web browser, but denied those features to developers of cross-platform apps on frameworks such as Cordova, artificially degrading the performance of Cordova apps compared to natively developed iOS apps. Both need to go through the AppStore anyway, but keeping as much dev lock-in as possible in terms of the tech u…

But where does your example show, that they sabotage webstandards?

It shows what I said before, yes they control their system and making it harder for other implemations if they want ... but his is something completely different.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#583

Post by hutzlibu » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 4:41 PM UTC

lucideer wrote: post #575

hutzlibu wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is something different, to not "keep up" with full priority, than to intentionally sabotage WebStandards ...

The UIWebView is an interesting example. They released significant performance advances in the iOS Safari web browser, but denied those features to developers of cross-platform apps on frameworks such as Cordova, artificially degrading the performance of Cordova apps compared to natively developed iOS apps. Both need to go through the AppStore anyway, but keeping as much dev lock-in as possible in terms of the tech u…

... and it might be that they dont like certain standards ... but graphics is a different category.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#584

Post by exodust » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 4:42 PM UTC

blurbleblurble wrote: post #563

Hey Apple, where's your Web Midi support at?

Wow, I never knew that was even a thing. The idea of turning a knob on my midi controller and having the web app respond is very cool.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#585

Post by AlphaSite » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 4:54 PM UTC

ioquatix wrote: post #507

Angostura wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did make such a judgement- you wrote: > In terms of performance, I don't think Metal is even a contender, given how bad macOS hardware is compared to Wintel.

I said: > In terms of performance, I don't think Metal is even a contender, given how bad macOS hardware is compared to Wintel. The response was: > It makes no sense to judge the quality of an API by the power of the available hardware it might be running on. You are right, that my statement is not very clear. The key point here is that I'm not judging the quality of an API by the power of the available hardware, but…

You need to provide some evidence that function dispatch is a limiting factor for Metal, if you're going to argue that it is a limiting factor.

Also you seem to be under the impression that because a machine is expensive it is destined for gaming.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#586

Post by RussianCow » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 4:56 PM UTC

smaps wrote: post #557

_ph_ wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, not a native English speaker here. In my native German, it is usually proper to use the male form for the undetermined gender. This might leak into my use of the English language. I would be happy, if you could rephrase the offending sentence in correct gender-neutral English, so I could avoid this mistake in future.

The correct way to be neutral in english would be "tuned to their needs"

Not to be pedantic, but the male form is actually also the neutral form in English; "their" is not actually correct. That said, I think it's entirely appropriate to use it in practice.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#587

Post by uptown » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 5:03 PM UTC

0x006A wrote: post #265

uptown wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they allow other browsers on iOS.

no they don't, you can skin webkit but that's not allowing other browsers.

Wow, I had no idea that was the case. Thanks for the correction.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#588

Post by pjmlp » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #569

pjmlp wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And game availability relates to GPU API support available at the platform... how exactly? When given the option, professional game developers choose the one that better helps them achieving their goals.

There's a reason why DX had almost zero adaptation outside games. Maybe it is not that good API, if you need to support your app for a few years too. Games are fire and forget.

Actually 2D and text rendering, WPF rendering, UWP Composition API, UI animation support.

All of them used by most desktop applications on Windows, including image, video and 3D editing applications.

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#589

Post by grzm » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

RussianCow wrote: post #586

smaps wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The correct way to be neutral in english would be "tuned to their needs"

Not to be pedantic, but the male form is actually also the neutral form in English; "their" is not actually correct. That said, I think it's entirely appropriate to use it in practice.

Singular they is used and appropriate in English as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Re: Apple proposes new web 3D graphics API

#590

Post by staticautomatic » Wed, Feb 08, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

om2 wrote: post #284

Zandikar wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we've all gone a bit off the rails here. Although you and those you've been discussing this with can't agree on which API is better, there's plenty of evidence that Vulcan, Metal and Dx are all quite good. Why then would we introduce yet another "standard" from scratch, as opposed to working to implement one of the existing ones better across platforms (if the desire is truly to build a universal gfx api)?

Making a new standard is inevitable. That's not really a choice. Even if the web platform directly replicated one of the existing APIs, you still have to explain how it binds to JavaScript, as well as memory and GPU resource management details. So bringing a modern graphics API to the web will inevitably create a new standard. The question then is whether to try to clone one of the native-level APIs, or make somethin…

Why is making a new standard inevitable?