New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#581

Post by messe » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:44 PM UTC

geofft wrote: post #521

mozumder wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. Been using vi as my primary command-line editor for 25+ years, and have never used the ESC key, and just use the default setup. I don't even know what commands would use the ESC key?

What do you use to get out of insert mode? Like, you've just finished typing some text and want to save and quit, what do you press? EDIT: Thanks for the replies, other people. I personally use ^C, I was curious what 'mozumder specifically used. :)

I have `jk` mapped to that in my vimrc. It's far nicer than ESC.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#582

Post by geophile » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:44 PM UTC

It's not just the function and escape keys.

- The rollout of USBC has been a mess. Apparently you now need to purchase a separate cable to connect your iphone to the new MBP.

- I haven't tried the new keyboard, but from what I've read, it is less like the old MBP keyboard, which was quite good, and more like the awful MacBook keyboard.

- The generally horrible design of their major desktop apps.

- The disaster that is Apple's cloud strategy. Too many ids, too difficult to know what is physically where and how to get it where you want.

I haven't yet played with the new MBP, but I am seriously wondering whether my current MBP is my last one.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#583

Post by 542458 » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:44 PM UTC

51Cards wrote: post #449

mikeash wrote: post #337

I'm always amazed at how techies are so often unable to consider other people's points of view. You'd think I'd be used to it by now, but no. If you don't like the new design, that's totally fine. I've seen a lot of people saying that. But when you say that the new design is bad for everybody , or bad for millions of people you haven't met, based solely on your own personal reasons, you've lost it. I'm a developer. T…

Here is my issue with the new touch bar as a general UI element. Things meant for fingers should have tactile feedback unless you're also looking at the same location (like a touch screen) where you can get visual feedback. This offers no tactile response when used, and its layout changes constantly, thus it needs to be looked at to use it. That means you have to shift your vision focus from screen to keyboard repeat…

I type a lot. But 99+% of that is A-Z and common symbols. While I normally touch type, I use the function row so infrequently that I don't have the muscle memory to correctly locate the f-keys. The only ones I can do blind are esc, volume up and volume down, and even those I only type rarely. All the rest require me to stop and look at the labels on the keys.

Furthermore, I'm not really using the key shape for those to hit them. I'm mostly just hitting them based on their relative position from the home row. So IMHO at least this wouldn't really affect me - If I end up with one of these laptops I'll still probably be able to hit the few I do infrequently use without looking just fine, and for all the rest I'm looking for labels anyways.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#584

Post by heisenbit » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:45 PM UTC

Who is buying these new MacBook Pro's? Serious where the heck do the guys in Apples Mac division see the market?

- Developers? Not excited. Disk speed better that is relevant. CPU less so. But ESC and RAM not acceptable if anyone is looking into a machine to last 3 years.

- Gamers? PCs offer a better price / performance relationship.

- Personal users? Win10 vs. OSX has advanced a lot compared to Win XP vs OSX. Secure enclave to make Apple Pay purchases? With what money after buying the laptop?

- Managers? At this price point? Maybe the show-off kind in the C suite.

- Employees? It would make sense as it is cheaper to support but at this price penetration into the enterprise - which is all the Apple/IBM relationship is about has no chance.

One of the challenges running businesses that are in different markets where one has a different market position is dealing with the very different margins. Laptops everywhere else except in Apple land are low margin. IOS is high margin but it is in an exceptional position. Pretending that Macs are in the same is foolish.

Missteps can happen. I'm sure it will show in sales. Let's just hope they are able to adjust course quickly enough.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#585

Post by sksksk » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:45 PM UTC

zzzcpan wrote: post #467

mozumder wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. Been using vi as my primary command-line editor for 25+ years, and have never used the ESC key, and just use the default setup. I don't even know what commands would use the ESC key?

ESC key is the default in vim, most vim users do use it.

I use vim, I just assumed that when you open Terminal, a virtual escape key would appear in the touch bar. It'd still be in the corner, so fitts law would still apply, and it'd be easy to find.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#586

Post by matchagaucho » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:46 PM UTC

So many DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) features are mapped to function keys.

Is Apple abandoning their digital recording arts audience too?

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#587

Post by blowski » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:46 PM UTC

comex wrote: post #578

blowski wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope - at the moment, my CAPS lock does nothing. But I'm not going to adjust my habit of where to find the ESC key just so I can have some pointless colourful lights.

Instead you could adjust your habit of where to find the ESC key for the sake of ergonomics (Caps Lock is much bigger and closer), like I did years ago, and take the colorful lights as a bonus.

What about the fact that I frequently jump between machines, many of which aren't mine? It's the same as people telling me to learn the Dvorak layout. Any possible productivity gains are lost in forever remembering what keyboard I'm on.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#588

Post by lr » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:46 PM UTC

I thought the current application determined what is displayed in that area? How do we know the Terminal won't cause the escape and FN keys to appear? Same for TextMate, Atom, etc.? Yes, Apple owns the default Terminal app so there is no controlling what happens with it (or is there, i.e., can you, via preferences define what you want to show up regardless of what the app chooses...). But the makers of TextMate, Atom, and IDEs can decide to make the function keys show up, no?

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#589

Post by ishbits » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

Kurtz79 wrote: post #368

ericjang wrote: post #37

I dislike this post intensely. The opinion comes across as uncharitable, as the author probably has not used this Macbook Pro yet. How can you (alexeysemeney) be so sure? I consider myself a developer, and I almost never use the Fn and ESC keys on my Mac. Everybody uses the computer differently, but I'm pretty sure this is not a deal-breaker for most. One could also argue that the touch bar might lead to innovative d…

I find really amusing that after the Macbook reveal last year half of the response comments (in sites like ArsTechnica) were of the gist "just give me an updated Macbook Air, with the same form factor and a better screen". Well, the base Macbook Pro model does exactly that. There is also an option (cheaper!) to keep the function keys. http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/10/no-new-macbook-airs-as-... I might be getting…

I think there are lot of us who may never have really like Mac hardware, but find the OS is the best option out there to get our work done. Its just a little sad it locks us to specific hardware platform as well.

Re: New MacBook Pro Is Not a Laptop for Developers Anymore

#590

Post by Ph0X » Fri, Oct 28, 2016, 4:47 PM UTC

melling wrote: post #393

slg wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like I said in another post, is a new single purpose cable a solution for a missing dongle if I still have to carry the old cable with me too? Great, I don't need a USB-C to USB-A dongle, I just need both my USB-C to lightning and USB-A to lightning cables. It is the same problem, just shifting around the inconvenience. And if USB-C is so great and the future of all tech, why isn't Apple moving to it on their mobile…

Google has moved to USB-C with the Pixel. https://madeby.google.com/phone/ Within 24 months, most Android phones will ship with USB-C. That's over a billion devices a year. http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/1/11836816/iphone-vs-android-... Chromebook are starting to ship with USB-C. http://venturebeat.com/2016/10/03/hp-chromebook-13-review-th... USB-C is the future. I'm really not sure why PC vendors having put a couple…

They had actually moved even before that with 5X and 6P. They were some of the first phones to do it. I believe a few samsung and other phones have already switched too.

In my opinion, that's courage that actually matters. USB-C is a huge step forward which everyone will benefit from once we all move. Removing the audio jack? meh.