SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas • Hacker News Board

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#571

Post by katbyte » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:26 AM UTC

shardling wrote: post #568

katbyte wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't mean blacks cannot be racist against whites. Anyone can be racist or sexist no matter how oppressed they are.

Some people use different definitions of those words; and under those definitions, it is not true that anyone can be racist. When they talk about racism or sexism, they are talking about their manifestation in society , which is not an action one individual can take. In this context, saying that something/someone is sexist or racist says nothing about intention, only the effect of the behavior or social structure. Fu…

From the wiki: "Some sociologists have defined racism as a system of group privilege."

That i can understand, Its racism. no argument there. So your changing the context of the word so the intent does not matter but the effect does? that's outrageous. Racism is all about the outcome AND intent.

why do all these mental gymnastics just so you can say X cannot be racist towards Y? Why even say something like that? I can't see if having any positive outcome. Its a blanket statement that while maybe true in some situations with your special definition of the word is not true in others. You can find areas of the world where almost any given race has the power/upper hand and are "racist" towards them.

My point is you cannot simply say X cannot be racist towards Y because it can, has and will happen and all levels. Sure you can limit your definition of the word racist and redefine it but really whats the point?

Either at an individual level, a social group level (X friends won't be friends with Ys) or a social/society level anyone race CAN be racist towards another. They may not be in a given situation/area/whatever crazy limitations you wanna make, but there is nothing inherently special about any race making them immune from being racist, we are all human regardless of race and we have to work together to stamp it out and statements such as hers do not exactly help at all. I'm not sure what point she was trying to make, or even you honestly, but it would be better to phrase it in a way that does not use the term racist and redefine it so people can say such inflammatory things. Notice how pretty much no one gets it, most disagree with it and it flames hate? That's not a way to fix racism.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#572

Post by obstacle1 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:28 AM UTC

aplusbi wrote: post #543

obstacle1 wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is true. If we could somehow compile a list of all the people 4chan has attacked over the years I'd bet we'd see equal opportunity trolling. What was that incident a while back, where the "security expert" offered a reward for breaking into his site? 4chan took up the offer, succeeded, and trolled the guy relentlessly. Death threats, photoshops, you name it. And he was a _male_ in a male-dominated…

Men don't get rape threats from women, I think is the key take-away. I'm sure you can find an example of it happening but it's not a regular occurrence.

I don't agres with you, but I'll grant it. So let's say that men don't get rape threats. Are rape threats inherently more worthy of our scorn than murder threats?

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#573

Post by katbyte » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:31 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #564

katbyte wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your saying anytime in public a penis joke is out of line? So when in public we cannot say anything that may potentially offend someone? I can't say god doesn't exist for fear of offending the religious? i can't say god does exist for fear of offending the atheists? That's some line you drew.

Why would you need to subject a stranger to your sex jokes or your proclamations about the existence/non-existence of God? Seriously, you should get to know somebody a little bit before you discuss that stuff. Or simply wait for some kind of indication they actually want to talk about it with you. Sure, it's true that literally anything you might offend somebody and that you can never totally avoid that. I'm sure the…

I think you've misunderstood me/what happened.

I'm not saying its ok to go upto people on the bus and tell them dick jokes or talk about goes existence/non-existence, that just kinda rude.

I mean your having a conversation with your friend and for someone nearby who wasn't participating or involved to be offended and outraged about it, take a photo and post it online like adira did. This is not discussing it with the person, this is discussing it with your friend in earshot of the person.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#574

Post by nbouscal » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 2:36 AM UTC

Steuard wrote: post #466

georgeorwell wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, but you just threw up two different straw (wo)men here. It's not sexist to make jokes about the word "dongle" sounding like "dong". They sound pretty similar. It's not very funny unless you're bored stiff or in grade five, but nevertheless it's pretty harmless joke material, and it isn't sexism. The examples you gave are sexism. If the two guys at PyCon had directed the jokes at Adria while also excluding…

"It's not sexist to make a jokes about the word "dongle" sounding like "dong". They sound pretty similar. It's not very funny unless you're bored stiff or in grade five, but nevertheless it's pretty harmless joke material, and it isn't sexism." I really have to disagree. Dick jokes are perceived to be almost exclusively a part of "guy culture". Want proof? Watch how fast a group of guys making those jokes suddenly cl…

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Watch how fast my friends stop making gamer jokes when our sports-fan friend walks up. Is that "jock-ist"? Of course not. It's taking into consideration that the topic being discussed isn't likely of interest to the new member of the conversation, and therefore being considerate enough to change the topic. That's not oppression, it's courtesy.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#575

Post by Steuard » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 3:20 AM UTC

nbouscal wrote: post #574

Steuard wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's not sexist to make a jokes about the word "dongle" sounding like "dong". They sound pretty similar. It's not very funny unless you're bored stiff or in grade five, but nevertheless it's pretty harmless joke material, and it isn't sexism." I really have to disagree. Dick jokes are perceived to be almost exclusively a part of "guy culture". Want proof? Watch how fast a group of guys making those jokes suddenly cl…

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Watch how fast my friends stop making gamer jokes when our sports-fan friend walks up. Is that "jock-ist"? Of course not. It's taking into consideration that the topic being discussed isn't likely of interest to the new member of the conversation, and therefore being considerate enough to change the topic. That's not oppression, it's courtesy.

Maybe I didn't make my point clearly enough. I never meant to suggest that there's anything inherently sexist about the existence of such a thing as "guy culture" (or at least, that's an entirely separate issue). My point was very close to what you've said here, in fact: when guys see that they're part of a mixed group, they tend to be courteous and opt for more inclusive topics.

So (and here's the step where I evidently lost you before) what does it mean when guys at tech conferences routinely make dick jokes in public? The clear implication is that they feel like they're in a "guy space" where they don't need to stick to more inclusive topics. And that message gets heard loud and clear by everyone around them: men feel a little more comfortable making "guy jokes" themselves, and women feel a little more like outsiders.

[I was tempted to build a whole analogy based on the question, "Sure, and don't you think your sports-fan friend would feel uncomfortably out of place at PAX?" But while that makes the point, it falls short of the mark, because sports fans haven't been systematically discriminated against by gamers for most of known history.]

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#576

Post by smsm42 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 4:41 AM UTC

ericabiz wrote: post #217

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

>>>> But when this happens to you every single day

But what happens every day? Some people being stupid? That happens every day to many people. There are infinitely many ways of being stupid, and people are being stupid all the time, some frequently, some rarely. Is it really an excuse to "snap"? If I beat up some guy that made a joke I didn't like and then explain that I'm tired of rudeness and stupidity and "sometimes you just snap" - would that be a valid excuse? I don't think so.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#577

Post by smsm42 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 4:42 AM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #547

smsm42 wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody has the right to discuss penises, or anything they like, provided participants in discussion willing to do it. If they do not, the preceding history does not matter. However, in this case as far as I understand (please correct if I'm wrong) the person took offense not for something that was directed at her, but by something that is merely said in her presence, without her being the intended recipient or par…

> but for one to expect they'd never overhear anything that > they would not discuss personally would be an unwarranted > imposition on others. If she'd walked by their table in a restaurant and overheard them, or eavesdropped on them by putting her ear up to a closed door? Okay, then they might be able to claim they never could have expected to be overheard. But they were sitting directly behind her. Literally a few…

They probably expected that she wouldn't be paying attention to them or just didn't think about her listening in. People talk about all kinds of stuff while on talks or other group situations all the time, and not every time they study the surroundings to see if somebody is listening or not. The point here the talk wasn't directed at her, and while it would be appropriate to point out to the guys that there are in a public space and can be heard, so they should tone it down or maybe go talk outside, blowing it into an incident of systemic misogyny and rampant sexism that is worth losing a job over seems to me way out of proportion. Not every time somebody behaves out of place or rudely it means he is $_-ist, $_-ist and $_-ist and probably loves Hitler. Sometimes it's just people not thinking about what they are doing too much and coming out as an oafs. Pointing it out usually quite enough and no escalation is necessary. Sometimes is is

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#578

Post by smsm42 » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 5:30 AM UTC

fatjokes wrote: post #527

niggler wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She is not sorry for what she said, and that's fine. That's her prerogative. I take issue with people blaming her for the company firing the guy. She didn't accuse them of a felony or other crime. She pointed to what she thought was inappropriate and the employer overreacted. I'm frankly saddened that the discussion about the employment circles her and not the employer. Few are asking why, if the joke were so trivial…

> I'm frankly saddened that the discussion about the employment circles her and not the employer. This definitely shows that PlayHaven does not have their employees backs, but for me at least: 1. PlayHaven is in a tough spot. If they defended their employee, it might look as if they're not being tough on sexism, which the industry is heavily focusing on right now. Perhaps they figured it would be safer to be heavy-ha…

>>>> it might look as if they're not being tough on sexism, which the industry is heavily focusing on right now.

Which translates as "we have a political campaign, sorry, little guy, you have to go under the bus, because it is politically expedient to us, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs, you know?". Sounds pretty despicable to me. Then again, no reason to expect them to be an island of virtue in the world, they are no worse and no better than many others.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#579

Post by flaviusb » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 6:23 AM UTC

largesse wrote: post #492

raganwald wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? People say the same things all the time in companies where women complain about inappropriate sexuality. "What if I say something that offends her?" Most of us are good, inoffensive people. We are saddled with growing up in a world that is changing. It used to be accept…

We all deal with the fact that we're in the middle of change, and it isn't always comfortable. Just as it wasn't comfortable for people dealing with the acceptance of homosexuals: I think everyone accepts that the word "faggot" is no longer appropriate. Nope. That is not it. Men and women joke together freely with innuendo throughout society and most of the time it is not considered a problem. She did that exact thin…

No, context matters. Just as it is fine to be undressed when you go to bed but not when out on the street, it is fine to engage in innuendo with friends if that is what you and your friends do, or to be crass on Twitter to your followers who presumably opted in to reading your crassness (but not in @replies to people who don't follow you), but not at a professional conference in a public space. Can you understand that these situations are different?

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#580

Post by nbouscal » Fri, Mar 22, 2013, 6:40 AM UTC

Steuard wrote: post #575

nbouscal wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes absolutely no sense to me. Watch how fast my friends stop making gamer jokes when our sports-fan friend walks up. Is that "jock-ist"? Of course not. It's taking into consideration that the topic being discussed isn't likely of interest to the new member of the conversation, and therefore being considerate enough to change the topic. That's not oppression, it's courtesy.

Maybe I didn't make my point clearly enough. I never meant to suggest that there's anything inherently sexist about the existence of such a thing as "guy culture" (or at least, that's an entirely separate issue). My point was very close to what you've said here, in fact: when guys see that they're part of a mixed group, they tend to be courteous and opt for more inclusive topics. So (and here's the step where I evide…

Okay, I understand the disconnect now, but I still disagree with you.

First off, you've consistently used the word routinely without establishing that that word applies. This event does not count as a routine. I'm sure that other people have made dick jokes at tech conferences, but 'routinely' strikes me as an overstatement.

Second, 'in public' doesn't really work either. Two friends were sitting next to each other and one made a joke to the other. That's not private, but it's not exactly public either. It wasn't broadcast to the whole room. Adria happened to be sitting close and paying attention to their conversation, but from the best information I've been able to piece together she was not a part of it and it wasn't said with the intention of anyone hearing it other than the guy's friend. That's not making the tech conference a guy space, it's making their semi-private conversation a guy space. That is not a problem.

Third, I shouldn't have engaged your argumentation with a comparison, because I disagree with a fundamental premise that my comparison lent credence to. Sexual humor is not gender-specific. Girls make dick jokes too. That's why I fundamentally find the cries of sexism and misogyny to be ridiculous. Many of my female friends make me look like a Puritan when it comes to the jokes they tell. This should never have become a gender issue, it should have been an issue of appropriate behavior at professional events. Adria made it a gender issue, and here we are.