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What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

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Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#571
post #134

Any social organization needs to carefully consider their inclusion-exclusion curve with intentionality. I think a lot of people might balk at the word "inclusivity" today, but StackExchange had ridiculously high barriers to participation, making it inclusive to the long-time users on the site, but exclusive to the newbie participants who found themselves blocked for asking questions. They slowly killed the site in t…

> but exclusive to the newbie participants who found themselves blocked for asking questions. They slowly killed the site in this manner. i got stung by exactly this. i saw some of my early questions rewritten because some idiot mod that had not touched grass in a while thought that some words were better suited for stackoverflow. and don't get me wrong: i'm not talking about profanity, n-word or racial slurs, deroga…

> i got stung by exactly this.

> i saw some of my early questions rewritten because some idiot mod that had not touched grass in a while thought that some words were better suited for stackoverflow.

You came to a place where the terms and conditions state explicitly (https://stackoverflow.com/legal/terms-of-service/public#lice...) that you license your answer to the community with a Creative Commons CC-BY license (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/), and then got upset that someone from the community exercised those rights. Then you (almost certainly) incorrectly described that person as a "mod". Every user of Stack Overflow is entitled to propose edits, and everyone with at least 2000 reputation (about 150,000 accounts, versus 25 currently active moderators and only a handful of retired ones) can make those edits unilaterally.

> dumb example: i like to end my posts with something like

And you ignored that it's explicitly site policy (https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2950 ; https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/403176; https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/288160 ; https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/260776 ; many others) to remove this exact sort of thing, exactly because posting a question on Stack Overflow is not "a conversation between you and whoever answers". The site, in fact, explicitly started so that people could get answers without having a conversation, by creating an actually searchable resource.

And you didn't even consider that there might be an underlying goal of producing a relatively uniform (at least: direct, but professional) style, because third parties might want to read that. When you ask a question, you can probably only usefully get answered once; the most successful questions get millions of views.

When third parties find a Q&A with a search engine, language like that is wasting their time, and in fact is actually exclusionary. It gives the impression of walking in on someone else's private communication, when in fact the entire point of the exercise is to produce a question that someone else could equally well have asked. (The purpose is so that the other person can read the question, verify they're in the right place, read the answers and be answered instantaneously.)

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ending a question with "thanks" is explicitly forbidden because it is noise.

This sounds similar to the people who think that using normal pleasantries in conversation wastes everybody's time.

That's the crux of it, though. What conversation?

Stack Overflow was created specifically to avoid conversation. Hence the treatment of comments, and the fact the posts on the page consist of one question and everything else being a candidate answer (and not part of a help-desk or troubleshooting process). It was created by people expressing a common frustration with discussion forums, where you scan ungodly long threads without even knowing whether an answer got posted, have to ignore back-and-forths that are completely irrelevant to you as a knowledge-seeker, and perhaps ultimately end up at a "never mind, solved it" post with no elaboration.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#573
post #479

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The founders of SO had a theory, that irrelevant noise was what drove a site into insignificance over time. Even if it was just polite chit-chat. They took pains to automate out as much as they could, and put in place a culture that actively discouraged and removed it when possible. That culture remains even though the founders are long gone.

The founders left, and it went downhill as a result.

I think I replied to you earlier about it, but to reiterate: the site was going downhill for years before the founders left, and there is abundant evidence that the founders wanted exactly what mark-r claims.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an example of a functional cultural trait -- question and answer style should not be larded up with irrelevant pleasantries and redundant signatures that waste time for everyone reading the question thereafter. They took the time to fix it for you and you should have assimilated. This is different from closing your question and depriving you of an answer or making you feel dumb. It's just teaching you how to…

I put my name on my professional communications.

When you submit a documentation PR to an open-source project, do you put your name (real, screen or otherwise) in the section of documentation that you add? No; you let Git put it in the commit history. (And if you have to discuss it, you put it in the discussion, or let a forum system such as GitHub's put it there for you.)

Stack Overflow is the actual document being worked on, not the discussion thereof. (That's why there's a separate meta.stackoverflow.com domain.) And analogously to the Git commit history, your name is automatically stamped onto your posts, along with a link to your site profile, in a box at the bottom of the post.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#575

Any social organization needs to carefully consider their inclusion-exclusion curve with intentionality. I think a lot of people might balk at the word "inclusivity" today, but StackExchange had ridiculously high barriers to participation, making it inclusive to the long-time users on the site, but exclusive to the newbie participants who found themselves blocked for asking questions. They slowly killed the site in t…

>making it inclusive to the long-time users on the site

Fancy wording but inaccurate. Plenty of long-time users (me included) left when the mods became insane.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An edit that made a response worse should have knocked the mod down so that they were unable to mod any more. Literally everyone on the site is permitted to propose an edit, and everyone with at least 2000 reputation can make unilateral edits. The proposals are approved by a 2 out of 3 majority of random unilateral-edit-privileged users. None of this is considered "moderation" and is not done by "mods". Of millions…

So they have essentially killed the site. Congratulations I guess?

They have gone along with the site dying, as was always realistically going to happen, even if it took people a while to realize. As one of the people doing a lot of what you (in my view very misguidedly) consider "killing", I'm perfectly okay with that.

But I'm upset that my conscious attempts to make a more useful reference for everyone got disrespected from all sides: outside commenters ascribed incorrect and hurtful motives to me while refusing to consider what my real objective might have been; new users cursed me out or wrongly accused me of various things; the site ownership tried to make the task harder in all sorts of ways (while never compensating me for my work in any way); other high-rep users took destructive actions because the reputation system incentivized them (closing and downvoting questions was not incentivized in any way); the reputation system was never meaningfully revised even though everyone knew it was crap; and Google actively and deliberately made their search worse.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#578

Any social organization needs to carefully consider their inclusion-exclusion curve with intentionality. I think a lot of people might balk at the word "inclusivity" today, but StackExchange had ridiculously high barriers to participation, making it inclusive to the long-time users on the site, but exclusive to the newbie participants who found themselves blocked for asking questions. They slowly killed the site in t…

One of the biggest flaws of the site was the ability to close questions as 'Duplicate' or similar. Multiple times I would google a problem, the SO question was exactly as asked the first result, half-answers or 'Closed as Duplicate', then you click on the supposed "duplicate" and the nuance was totally missed. The other was the 'ability to read the room.' Even late-stage SO had the 'mods' not understand that they wer…

So it's not just me. The "duplicate" thing alone made it hard to use a lot of the time. Other stuff like people just being arrogant didn't bother me so much.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it wasn't so controlled it'd might as well have just been reddit. I agree there's a balance, and maybe they edged over the line, but I was consistently happy to have the following be the outcomes 1. Answers were reasonably close to correct, usable, informative (teaching) 2. Your site score came to mean something -- I once had a hiring CTO say "Oh you have some popular answers on the techs we use" 3. Progressive un…

They chose being controlled and not being Reddit - I can imagine lots of ways to do both - still they chose the toxic way and now they are dead, goal achieved.

It's probably as simple as people stopped going to SO now that there's a chatbot that can answer your question instantly and maybe even run your code. Idk what else they could've done.

Re: What AI did to stackoverflow in a graph

#580

Any social organization needs to carefully consider their inclusion-exclusion curve with intentionality. I think a lot of people might balk at the word "inclusivity" today, but StackExchange had ridiculously high barriers to participation, making it inclusive to the long-time users on the site, but exclusive to the newbie participants who found themselves blocked for asking questions. They slowly killed the site in t…

If it wasn't so controlled it'd might as well have just been reddit. I agree there's a balance, and maybe they edged over the line, but I was consistently happy to have the following be the outcomes 1. Answers were reasonably close to correct, usable, informative (teaching) 2. Your site score came to mean something -- I once had a hiring CTO say "Oh you have some popular answers on the techs we use" 3. Progressive un…

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