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The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

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Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#571
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Using social media is totally comparable to smoking. It's addictive, it's detrimental to health, and it's especially detrimental to kids going through puberty. "Browsing the internet", these days, mostly consists of social media platforms.

> It's addictive You don't get withdrawal symptoms. > it's detrimental to health Not going to get cancer or other illness from it. > Using social media is totally comparable to smoking. Very much a stretch.

> You don't get withdrawal symptoms.

People definitely get withdrawal symptoms when they try to quit social media. So much that they often get back.

> Not going to get cancer or other illness from it.

they will get and accelerate many illnesses being sedentary.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> REMOTE PRIVACY NEVER EXISTED BEFORE A FEW DECADES AGO! That is plain wrong. You could absolutely send a letter anonymously without showing your ID. You could use a phone booth without showing your ID. Increasingly more countries demand ID verification for such things like getting a SIM card that used to be remote privacy. But much more importantly you are making a false differentiation between 'remote' and local pr…

While you could send a letter anonymously, it was also trivial for the government to read any letter it wanted. The problem is we have switched from a world where it was easy to let the government read selected communications (single phones, letters), to one where it's hard not to give them access to everything or nothing. Personally, if there was some 'magic wand' way I could let the government keep it's previous le…

> let's not pretend we aren't taking a huge amount of existing power away from governments with large scale encryption.

For sure we were. That was the whole idea of the cypherpunks. Now we are going towards the opposite. The hope that computers and the internet would empower the people ultimately turned out wrong. The technology absolutely allows this, the things we do with it is as a society is the opposite.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#573

While obviously requiring real-world ID verification will reduce privacy, is there really any actual privacy left on today's internet? Every company from your ISP to Google to every vendor you shop at can read your browser fingerprint and IP address, which in most cases is enough to uniquely identify you. For serious privacy-concerned users there are ways around all of this but the vast majority of internet users don…

I agree. Also, it's not like the whole internet will be under ID check. One can still opt out and don't use the main stream social media? My hope is that ID check is targeting never ending feeds of crappy content.

That said, I am very concerned about how things work privacy wise today (even without ID check).

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but then you're partnering with someone you probably don't know to take payment for doing something illegal, and that partner knows your device and where to send the money. And if it's a phone app, it's not going to be on app stores and you already know the person giving you the app is a criminal. So you're installing an untrustworthy app to risk criminal charges, and the customers of this scheme are kids who m…

You’re missing the point. If the tokens are truly anonymous then none of this matters. There’s no way to discover or prove where the tokens came from. It could be someone in another country with stolen IDs, which are now a goldmine for minting tokens and selling on the internet. So the schemes inherently add some traceability, which makes the tokens no longer actually anonymous. This is the back door used to make the…

I'm not missing the point, and if you'll think about my scheme for a bit you'll see that anonymity is maintained in normal circumstances even though there's incentive to protect your credentials. Let's go through scenarios:

1) You give a teenager your full credentials. Teenager is careless, as teenagers often are, and posts something revealing who he is. Cops have option to search teenager's phone, see who you are, and at least revoke the credentials.

2) You install a relay app on your phone, for money. Now you've installed an untrustworthy app from a criminal, who might hack you, or might be arrested and reveal details of your device and where they're sending your money.

Neither scenario happens because the age verification is traceable.

3) Your credentials get stolen, and used in a foreign country to implement a relay scheme.

This one, I admit, my scheme can't do anything about. But this means our teenager has to pay a foreign entity. Teenagers can also pay foreign porn sites directly, if porn is our concern.

On top of that, the age verification systems we've seen so far have their own security holes that teenagers are exploiting without having to pay anything.

My personal view is that the whole thing is ridiculous and we shouldn't bother with any of this. My point is just that we can implement reasonably good age verification without eliminating anonymity on the internet.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#576
post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying such proxying apps exist now? Can you link a source for me? Regarding my scheme: The only way law enforcement should have access is if they show up and get the phone in their possession, with a warrant. Which could happen any time some teenager posts something without realizing it identifies them. If the teenager has your full credentials, that's when law enforcement sees who you are, and can take what…

But ... you were arguing method X prevents this from "They become a traceable identity token". And what are you going to do with the anonymous tokens? You'll identify whose credentials they are ... If you can identify physical hardware from a request or post, obviously it's not anonymous. In fact, if you can identify the owner of credentials from the credentials, they're not anonymous. Obviously in an actual anonymou…

No, you don't look up the token. You check a zero-knowledge proof.

The way this works is, there's a function with both public and private inputs, and an output. You can send me public inputs, and I can pass those plus my private inputs into the function, and give you the function output, along with a proof that the output is correct given your inputs.

So in this case, the government has a public key, which it uses to sign your credentials, consisting of your birthdate and a unique identifier.

The website sends you a large random number.

The public inputs are the government public key, the random number, today's date, and maybe a revocation list of identifiers.

The private data is my unique identifier and birth date.

The function returns true if my calculated age > 18, the government's signature of my data is valid, my private identifier is not on the public revocation list, and (to avoid replays) that the hash of your random number is not zero.

I send you back the generated proof, which is just a 256-bit number. You can check that the proof is correct without looking anything up. The proof does not give you any way to reconstruct my private data. It is only associated with the random number you gave me, and the public data everyone knows.

To keep the revocation list from growing forever, we could also make credentials expire after some period of time. Add an issue date to the private data, and we can add an expiration check to the function. Client software can automatically get a new credential if the old one is valid, expiration is just to allow us to delete old identifiers from the revocation list.

A hole in the above scheme is that government could try redoing proofs for a given random number, using all the current identifiers. To prevent this, the user passes in another random number as private data, and the function checks that that doesn't hash to zero either. User can change that random number every time, its only function is to change the generated proof to something the government can't replicate.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parents do need to do better. Work on building self confidence. My family relentlessly called me stupid and lazy to the point where a cyberbully would of been an upgrade. You can always turn your phone off. A lot of God awful parents treat their kids like trash and blame everyone else when Timmy doesn't get into Harvard. Of all the people I've met with rough upbringings not a single one blamed anything outside of bad…

I am not sure I understand the simultaneous arguments that being a parent is very hard AND that parents should just do better and help isn’t needed AND this problem has been going on for over a hundred years (it hasn’t - this is the first time we’ve ever had a generation actually turn out dumber). Could you clarify that, and maybe take into account the fact that this is indeed completely unprecedented? If you have ti…

Bad parents are always gonna find an excuse. Honest to God when I think of my childhood if people would’ve just left me alone for 30 minutes, I would’ve had a much easier time.

Turns out you don’t need to get into a great college to make a lot of money. If anything, my screwing around all day with video games has probably led to my great 6 figure career.

There’s absolutely no way to implement age gates all over the internet without fundamentally locking it down. Do you want a future where a website that chronicles the history of slave revolts is denied an operating permit?

This is about controlling the free speech of adults, not anything else.

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is the part of the issue that is so frequently ignored: Anonymous age verification schemes are easily defeated through proxying because there wouldn't be any consequences for selling your tokens. "Install this app on your phone and we'll pay you $1 per day" and it will mint your anonymous identity tokens and send them off to kids who want to buy them. If there's no way to track the tokens, there is no possi…

There is a way to prevent this (or at least slow it down), but that way requires device integrity protection. With integrity protection, tokens can only be minted with a government app, driven by both biometrics and physical human hands touching the physical screen. There's no way to do it in the background. Without it, you can indeed have a single activist mint 10 billion tokens and give them out for free, defeating…

Freedom, security, anonymity

Pick two, because you can never have all three

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure I understand the simultaneous arguments that being a parent is very hard AND that parents should just do better and help isn’t needed AND this problem has been going on for over a hundred years (it hasn’t - this is the first time we’ve ever had a generation actually turn out dumber). Could you clarify that, and maybe take into account the fact that this is indeed completely unprecedented? If you have ti…

Bad parents are always gonna find an excuse. Honest to God when I think of my childhood if people would’ve just left me alone for 30 minutes, I would’ve had a much easier time. Turns out you don’t need to get into a great college to make a lot of money. If anything, my screwing around all day with video games has probably led to my great 6 figure career. There’s absolutely no way to implement age gates all over the i…

So if it were a genuine approach from an adult simply looking to protect children, what would it be? As I said at the beginning, I don’t think it’s a good solution, just the only one we have.

Again, please incorporate the fact that children are, for the first time EVER, dumber than their predecessor generation. It is a literally unprecedented step backwards. Who cares if kids can access data about slave revolts if they’re simply too stupid and pacified to do anything with the knowledge? Do you think people who spend all day hearing from their “totally-not-LLM” peers online that everything is scary, they are OWED an easier life, and that the true problems are things like social issues - ignore the climate and starving children, will be the ones to rise up and fix a problem?

Re: The 'papers, please' era of the internet will decimate your privacy

#580
post #25

I can’t think of a better solution to the issue of children being so aggressively harmed by the internet. That doesn’t remove any of the problems associated with this.

Most people want to operate within the boundaries of their society. A simple G/PG/PG-13/R header for websites would solve 97% of actual issues anyone could care to present. (violence, porn, etc) Forcing people to identify themselves will not solve skinner boxes, gambling-for-children, focus-degrading slop, etc. Bluey-themed slot machines are still harmful.

Do… you think kids are accidentally finding porn, thinking it’s for them, and partaking? Why would any teen see a “mature” rating on a website and go elsewhere? This is the kind of response I expect a literal alien from another planet to make.

As an aside, why would a mature rating on a bluey themed gambling machine change anything? I may have a unique perspective on this because I worked at blockbuster for a decade but I PROMISE you parents largely do not care. If you want to solve the problem, hoping parents solve it isn’t… actually a solution of any kind.

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