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Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

reuters.com

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Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#571
post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if you show them a jailbreak of their model that bypasses their safety, they'll tell you that any model can eventually be jailbroken so don't worry about safety. They claim two things: 1) The specific, available jailbreak for Fable 5 is not dangerous - this has been confirmed by multiple experts, and there is no credible evidence against this claim (in other words, Anthropic is probably correct) 2) It is imposs…

I'm pretty sure that Gödel incompleteness theorem and its consequences pretty much guarantee #2

I'm guessing you mean, the incompleteness theorem guarantees that nobody can prove their model is un-break-able?

I don't think that's quite what it means. The theorem says that it's impossible to write a function, "will_halt(program, input)", that will be correct for all possible {program, input} pairs. But for a particular program, you may be able to write a proof that it will halt for all inputs -- that's what software verification is about.

The implications here would be that nobody can create a "will_jailbreak(model, input)" function which works for all model/input pairs. But we don't need a general function which works for all model/input pairs; we just need a way to prove that for a specific model, there will be no jailbreaks for any input. As with software verification, this may require that the model be developed in a specific way.

Granted we don't currently know how to make such a proof regarding neural networks; but that's not because of Gödel.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#573
post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we require the destruction of the brains of those that watch pirated movies?

Different situations call for different responses. When someone steals a watch, we force them to give it back. Yet when someone steals a cake and eats it, we don't force them to puke it back up. If you pirate a movie, the court might very well force you to delete all the copies you made of the movie you downloaded, destroy DVDs you burned, etc.

Thanks for proving current copyright law makes no sense

Here's a better idea, a fixed fee for any work. You can buy the license to read a book for $X (for whatever purpose) in RAND terms - of course publisher/material costs go on top, so if you're buying an actual book you're getting the material costs as well - or streaming fees or whatever

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#575

This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win. Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?

>This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about.

Ah yes, systematic fraud and protectionist practices, free market through and through.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#576
post #534

I'll just leave it here: "Anthropic's downloading of over seven million books from pirate sites like LibGen constituted infringement, the judge ruled, rejecting Anthropic's "research purpose" defense: "You can't just bless yourself by saying I have a research purpose and, therefore, go and take any textbook you want." https://www.joneswalker.com/en/insights/blogs/ai-law-blog/wh...

How many “capabilities” did they “extract” from those books?

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#577
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Anthropic has terms of service with more stipulations than just "you must pay and can use the service for any purpose"?

violating their terms of service doesn't make it fraudulent?

Laws define fraud, terms of service define what a company would like you to do, usually in the narrowest and most abusive and extractive way possible.

The idea that anyone would side with a company doing more to support the ToS con than (at most) terminating an account they find it violation is sickening.

Really if we had competent, uncompromised government, most of these terms should illegal and result in Anthropic (and basically every other tech company) being hauled up in front of a regulator and fined heavily until they rewrite them to be less sociopathic.

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#578
If you have openrouter do this little experiment: Go to https://openrouter.ai/chat. Select a few models, but customize them to have an empty system prompt.

Then ask: "你是什么模型?" ("What model are you?" in Mandarin).

My result after trying only three times: Sonnet 4.6 says it's DeepSeek, while Opus 4.8 says it's Qwen. The second time around Sonnet said it was Anthropic Claude.

Are Chinese companies currently complaining about Anthropic distilling their models?

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#579

This is great for competition! Chinese vendors offering a cheaper solution = what economics told me the free market was all about. I also learnt that Anthropic should get better at what they do if they want to compete. If not, somebody else will win. Or does this not apply to huge US corporations any more?

China aren't offering a cheaper solution. They are subsidizing an existing one (which is already subsidized) in order to gain foothold. The difference is that in the US subsidies come from VC, while OP implies subsidies come from the AI labs that buy the training data (which may as well also be VC backed, so just one extra hop). This isn't "the market working as intended", this is an exhaustion fight to the bottom wh…

Chinese models are years ahead of american models on multimodal comprehension, better yet,they publish on what makes the models tick and release weights openly.

Chinese research outout, publically released, has also contributed in big ways to features present in every single US model. Yours is a bit of an unfair take I'd say.

Besides, claude will think its chatgpt sometimes, so clearly this isn't a problem restricted to china, turns out unethical companies will do unethical things /shrug

Re: Anthropic says Alibaba illicitly extracted Claude AI model capabilities

#580
post #576
post #534

I'll just leave it here: "Anthropic's downloading of over seven million books from pirate sites like LibGen constituted infringement, the judge ruled, rejecting Anthropic's "research purpose" defense: "You can't just bless yourself by saying I have a research purpose and, therefore, go and take any textbook you want." https://www.joneswalker.com/en/insights/blogs/ai-law-blog/wh...

How many “capabilities” did they “extract” from those books?

The capabilities of the books' writers to produce the text contained within them, which is exactly what Alibaba "extracted" from Claude. The point here is that Anthropic's framing as some sort of sophisticated technological attack is the ridiculous part. It's writing prompts and saving responses. We're all running "distillation attacks" on Claude, every day! Most of us just don't feed that stuff into a training corpus.
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