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British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

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Re: British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

#571

Post by hnlmorg »

grogenaut wrote: post #566
hnlmorg wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not even remotely true. Plenty of people still wear analogue wrist watches (eg for fashion). Then there’s old clocks in buildings like town halls. And it’s still reasonably common for people to hang analogue clocks in homes like one might a painting. And even many digital clocks are still dumb devices that need to be manually synced. Such as most kitchen appliance clocks.

Won't someone please think of the poor JLC owner. Look I get it, I like nice watches as well. I also recognize some day a computer is going to drive for me. Some of my nicest antique watches barely or don't run. All of those clocks have drift and most of the wall ones are wrong by several minutes. We're also talking the drift of 1 hour over the course of 6 months. or .32 minutes a day, or 2.3 minutes a week. Most clo…

You’re vastly over exaggerating the drift of analogue watches. I’ve never experienced anything like that and I’ve been using them for 40+ years ;)

Also, 5 minutes of drift is still very noticeable for people. You don’t need NTP for that level of accuracy but you do need the clocks not to adjust their time zones by a minute every day.

Re: British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

#572

Post by [deleted] »

pkulak wrote: post #253
messe wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That has to be latitude dependent. > you're getting natural sunlight through all your windows for hours every morning Hah "hours". Not in Northern Europe you're not. My commute is dark on both sides. If I had to choose which side I'd prefer to be brighter I'd prefer the end of the day rather than feeling like my daylight has been wasted in the office. I shift my schedule in winter to make up for this as best I can.

I guess. I'm at 46 degrees and civil twilight at Christmas starts at 7am. I get up at 6:30, so yeah, dead of winter, I spend 30 minutes in darkness. But that's better than 1:30. I guess it kinda hinges on this idea of "wasting" daylight. I don't feel like that. I want the sun to wake me up, and have no problem doing whatever I like when it's dark in the evening. Do people generally go on hikes after work? I go out fo…

[deleted]

Re: British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

#573

Post by 9935c101ab17a66 »

pkulak wrote: post #219
jorvi wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instinctively, I think morning light is important to our biology for a daily reset I'd bet people would happily trade away the inkling of light they get during their winter commute before locking themselves into their office for some extra daylight when they leave that office. Daylight is most enjoyable if you can actually make use of it.

That's what everyone says. But it turns out people hate spending their morning in darkness for more light at night. Which makes perfect sense: https://washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-... > the inkling of light they get during their winter commute It's not an inkling. Unless you roll out of bed and instantly onto your commute, you're getting natural sunlight through all your windows for hours every…

That article is hardly conclusive. It states the biggest reason for the unpopular response was a belief that the incidence of traffic accidents involving young children walking to school increased. It also states that wasn’t factually supported.

It also cites one opinion poll. And we have to keep in mind this happened FIFTY years ago.

I’m not even a permanent DST advocate. It’s just weird to me the link you shared does nothing to substantiate your position.

Update: my suspicions were correct — there was a public panic caused by parents groups that had no basis in fact:

> Considerable opposition to observing DST during the winter had come from school groups, such as the National School Boards Association, which expressed concern over darkness during the morning school commute.[47][48]

> When members of Congress introduced legislation to repeal the practice, they stated it jeopardized children's safety, citing the deaths of eight schoolchildren in Florida since DST had been enacted a few weeks prior

Ironically:

> A meta-analysis by Rutgers researchers found that permanent DST would eliminate 171 pedestrian fatalities (a 13% reduction) per year

Re: British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

#574

Post by hdgvhicv »

stetrain wrote: post #491
bloak wrote: post #470

These discussions are always very annoying. People tend to state their preferences without mentioning their latitude, their longitude, or their current time zone. Anyway, here are my preferences: GB should switch to UTC+0 all year. UTC+1 all year was tried (1968-1971) and was very unpopular in Scotland. School hours are roughly 09:00 till 15:00 and they only get about 6 hours of sunlight in winter up north so local n…

> GB should switch to UTC+0 all year. UTC+1 all year was tried (1968-1971) and was very unpopular in Scotland. School hours are roughly 09:00 till 15:00 and they only get about 6 hours of sunlight in winter up north so local noon has to be at around 12:00. Couldn't you adjust the school schedule by an hour to achieve the same effect?

And the bus and train timetables to match. And the work times, I cleumg the shops and offices.

That’s what changing the wall clock does.

Re: British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

#575

Post by bluGill »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #130
exmadscientist wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> winter just doesn't have enough daylight to think you can get everything done with sunlight That's the perfect way to say it. The other piece that a lot of people are missing is the whole larks (early risers) vs owls (late risers) divide. I think the best illustration of that is to ask, if you got your pick, which shift you'd take, based solely on your own body and habits: 8-4, 9-5, or 10-6 (or perhaps even further…

My guess is that both owls & larks get their preference logically backwards. My guess is that owls will say they prefer permanent daylight time and larks will say they prefer permanent standard time. But their revealed preference is the opposite -- owls wake up well after sunrise and go to bed well after sunset. Yet permanent daylight time will shift it so they'll be waking up closer to sunrise and going to bed close…

for both those groups it doesn't matter because society is going to change times. That is their sleep habits are not driven by the sun but by the activites they do in society and those will change too. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what I evpect to see.

Re: British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

#576

Post by allknowingfrog »

Mumps wrote: post #501
allknowingfrog wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I'm not one of those people. I like waking up with the sun and driving to work in the daylight. The idea that DST solves anything absolutely blows my mind. If you want the ability to start your work day earlier and end it earlier, that seems like a worker protection bill that needs to be passed. DST is the kludgiest kludge that ever kludged.

Isn't the converse then equally appropriate? Move to DST and if you want the ability to start your day later and end later, [...].

I'm proposing that DST is an awkward solution to the problem. You're suggesting that we should use the awkward solution and then also stack another solution on top. Why not cut out the extra step?

Re: British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

#577

Post by WorldMaker »

extraduder_ire wrote: post #570
WorldMaker wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Discord you have Time tags for things like like "Are you free at ?". There's a well known tool called Hammertime [1] to make it easy to create those tags and copy/paste them into place. (I miss Hammertime sometimes daily when using Slack at work.) We could standardize such tools. We could make them easier to use like or . We have the technology (decades of date parsing experience and date math libraries). Will we?…

I've gotten in the habit of giving times in UTC explicitly when talking to people in other timezones. Even if I give a time in another specific timezone. (All of my computers get a world clock with a few locations and UTC) A friend of mine works in a company with employees all over the world for 24hr coverage with handoff meetings where shifts overlap, seeing them do it for call times sold me on the idea.

It's still possible for the world to adopt something like Swatch Internet Time for coordinating across timezones/"without" timezones. Possible, but probably unlikely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swatch_Internet_Time

Re: British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

#578

Post by iggldiggl »

stackskipton wrote: post #208
allknowingfrog wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Uncle Steve is zero hours ahead. Uncle Steve is the same number of hours ahead that he has always been, and that's a thing that could be looked up just as easily as finding his time zone. I think the author is greatly exaggerating the degree to which time zones solve any of the problems mentioned. Uncle Steve might be on a different sleep schedule from me, regardless of whether or not he's in a different time zone.…

I think you missed entire point of operation. If everywhere runs on UTC, they will still have different times when people are working/not working/sleeping so you still have to look something up and figure it out. With time zones, you look up "What time is it?", realize it's 4:30AM and since most people around the world follow similar schedule, you quickly realize he's fast asleep.

Also time references in stories would become much more cumbersome, and never mind how you'd handle fictional locations…

Re: British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

#579

Post by tempestn »

pomian wrote: post #568
madcaptenor wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory on why people use "xST" is that the word "standard" time sounds like it is the fancy official time. When people say EST and mean EDT I'm tempted to just show up an hour late, if it's a meeting I don't want to go to.

EST = Europe Standard Time

EST is Eastern Standard Time. Most of Europe is on CET or CEST depending on time of year. (Somewhat confusingly, the 'S' in that case refers to Summer rather than Standard!)

Re: British Columbia is permanently adopting daylight time

#580

Post by madcaptenor »

pomian wrote: post #568
madcaptenor wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory on why people use "xST" is that the word "standard" time sounds like it is the fancy official time. When people say EST and mean EDT I'm tempted to just show up an hour late, if it's a meeting I don't want to go to.

EST = Europe Standard Time

OK, I'll assume they meant that when they really meant US Eastern time and I'll be six hours early.
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