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Iron Beam: Israel's first operational anti drone laser system

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Re: Iron Beam: Israel's first operational anti drone laser system

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No problem, include him. Also include Norm Finklestein and watch their debate hosted by Lex Fridman.

> Also include Norm Finklestein Why would he be one of the New Historians? Norman Finkelstein isn't really even a historian, he's more of a activist/political scientist if anything AFAIU. > watch their debate hosted by Lex Fridman. I've seen it, it's pretty clear if you dig into the facts that the accusations of genocide against Israel are not supported by the evidence. It's also quite clear that people like Norman F…

The guy actually said "Israeli historians", not "New Historians", which means he's probably not reading the people the New Historians were responding to. He's just looking for legitimation propaganda for antizionist politics.

Re: Iron Beam: Israel's first operational anti drone laser system

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get to "resist" your neighbors existence because you want to claim their territory for yourself.

Start with the Wikipedia entry on the subject and then make your way down slowly to what Israeli historians have to say on the subject. Ilan Pappé Avi Shlaim Simha Flapan

I've taken courses and read books on this subject and lived it in-person. Don't name-drop propagandists at me. Make a substantive point about what statute you're claiming makes it legal to invade Israel in an attempt to conquer it and wipe it out.

Re: Iron Beam: Israel's first operational anti drone laser system

#573

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Hamas chooses to fight in urban locations. And keeps the civilians in place at gunpoint. Consider an attack for which Israel was blamed for a large number of civilian casualties. Israel had given warning they were going to hit the building, get out. Reality: Hamas ordered all the neighbors to rush to the roof of the building to keep Israel from hitting it. Too slow, they were still inside when the bomb landed.

Even if that were true - and it's likely true in some cases - the disregard Israel has shown has been appalling. You don't get out of this by blaming Hamas. You simply don't. If you believe you do - I'll be writing you off as a disgusting apologist. I'm not going to rehash the war crimes Israel has committed during the last two years. It's likely a waste of time as you already appear to be said apologist. A useful to…

Disregard?

Always based on nonsense. The number that matters is civilians per combatant--and for urban combat where there hasn't been an evacuation Israel far outperforms every other country. Every other--they make us look bad.

Re: Iron Beam: Israel's first operational anti drone laser system

#574
post #521

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It's insane to compare Hamas and how they treat their citizens with Israel. Can you name a single thing Hamas has done to mitigate its civilian casualties?

Sorry, what? Mitigate it's civilian casualties? Are you spewing the garbage "human shield" argument here? The propagandization is complete with you. - B'tselem is a an Israeli org - https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields - Former Israeli soldiers - https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-arm... - Even NY Times - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-g...

You didn't answer his question.

Re: Iron Beam: Israel's first operational anti drone laser system

#575

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Some facts about that number: 1) It's the total death toll from all causes, including natural causes. 2) The majority of those "journalists and media workers" were Hamas propaganda people. 3) UNRWA had a higher proportion of it's people identified as terrorists than the population at large. 4) It's what Hamas claimed, without any means of verification. Israel showed about 4k were unquestionably false. Hamas also clai…

1) It's not. In fact, most scholars agree these numbers are way lower than the real one, as those are only the confirmed deaths. 2) Source? The only places where I can read about it are in far right Israeli or American communications. 3) Source? It seems like Israel was interested in labelling UNRWA as a terrorist organization at some point, but there is no evidence to back up their claim. After all, the IDF is known…

1) What scholars? Because everything I see is garbage. Prime example--they compared two different lists of the dead in Gaza. A capture/recapture model to estimate what percent was actually captured. But capture/recapture inherently requires your captures to be independent and the second list was specifically an attempt to catch those missed by the first. Thus the two lists were not remotely independent.

2) Unfortunately, most sources are not willing to report things Hamas does not want reported--reporting things Hamas doesn't like would interfere with their ability to report anything. Thus you're stuck with mostly Israeli sources. But Israel has published lists. And, notably, nobody comes along and shows any problems with the Israeli reporting. It's always dismissed without evidence--and that is pretty strong indication that it's true. In discerning the truth between competing sides look at how each side responds to the claims of the other.

3) Once again, Israel has published lists. And note that you are presuming your conclusion in your argument. You can't claim Israel shoots innocents because Israel shoots innocents. And you also are presenting without evidence the claim that Israel was trying to starve Gaza.

I will not deny that Israel shoots "journalists"--because the propaganda people pretend they are journalists. And, likewise, "humanitarian" aid workers--the aid system was basically controlled by Hamas and used to maintain control over the population. It's the unfortunate reality of almost all "aid" operations--the aid is controlled by the very people who cause the situation and is used to maintain control. Gaza is normal, not an outlier.

4) Israel put out some stuff showing "dead" that weren't. Things like a group of "dead" where the identity numbers were sequential, the names were different, the rest of the details were the same. Really, now, a bunch of people with sequential ID numbers die together???? Especially when sequential ID numbers aren't possible with their system. (The ID numbers have a check digit.)

I am decidedly not fine with ethnic cleansing in Gaza, I just do not think it's going on. Hamas engineered an atrocity to make you think Israel is evil.

Re: Iron Beam: Israel's first operational anti drone laser system

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's normally easy to tell apart war and terrorism. Look at the person who selects the target. What do they believe is at that point? Civilian--it's terrorism. Military/government, it's war or insurgency. Look at the pattern--taking out a guard post to get to the civilians behind does not make it legitimate. Note that you need to look at the person who selects the target--a soldier in the field often knows little of…

> Look at the person who selects the target. What do they believe is at that point? We rarely have access to or even knowledge of who this person is, let alone their mens rea . Any metric based solely on intent is (a) impossible to objectively adjudicate and (b) corrupted by the crazy, who will legitimately believe in fantasies if it serves their ends. I don’t think you’re wrong. Just that this metric is inadequate.…

While we don't have access to their minds we do generally have access to what they say. They think they are shooting at bad guys, the claim is innocents hit without military advantage--if they considered the target valid they'll generally either say what they were aiming at or that the ones hit aren't actually innocents. The Chinese embassy case illustrates what I'm talking about--we admitted we made a mistake and indicated what the intended target was. Nobody challenged the validity of the intended target. Or, multiple times, Israel hits some high profile "innocent", in response to the criticism they release pictures that show the person wasn't an innocent.

Re: Iron Beam: Israel's first operational anti drone laser system

#577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radicalization?? No. Yes, there were a few attacks on aid trucks. People who saw aid going to those who were holding Israeli hostages. You realize Israel was under no legal obligation to permit the aid? Don't chant "Geneva", it only requires allowing aid to non-combatants. When there is even a reasonable threat of diversion to military purpose the obligation goes away--and there was not only a reasonable threat, but…

Thanks for citing the laws that legally clears the starvation of civilian children and elderly, amongst others! Since it's legal, that means it's also morally ethical? Right? Ok, case closed, let them rot to death! Next problem? How about next we argue why it was perfectly acceptable to crash 2 planes into 2 civilian buildings. Seems to be in the same ballpark!

How about recognizing who is actually causing the "starvation" (hint: it's never actually been demonstrated)? Israel lets aid in, Hamas seizes it and then points to the people who didn't get it.

Re: Iron Beam: Israel's first operational anti drone laser system

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want you to think that. There is no way any group other than Hamas could be operating at that scale. It's Hams taking the aid to use it to control the population. It's not like they were actually starving--Hamas never managed to find a legitimately starving person to point a camera at. Every single person they paraded in front of the cameras had medical issues that were the cause of their problems. Just go look…

https://www.who.int/news/item/22-08-2025-famine-confirmed-fo...

They made up that claim. Hamas never even claimed anywhere near the number of deaths that would comprise famine. And Hamas never managed to point their cameras at anyone starving for non-medical reasons. We have a very clear case of a dog not barking.

Re: Iron Beam: Israel's first operational anti drone laser system

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want you to think that. There is no way any group other than Hamas could be operating at that scale. It's Hams taking the aid to use it to control the population. It's not like they were actually starving--Hamas never managed to find a legitimately starving person to point a camera at. Every single person they paraded in front of the cameras had medical issues that were the cause of their problems. Just go look…

Reminder the UN said it could feed the millions in Gaza more than the 1200+ calories per person Israel was letting in. The UN at the same time only fed the 400,000 Sudan refugees 400 calories per person per day. Lots of politics at play.

The UN that couldn't move a substantial portion of the aid from the border to the warehouses. Because they wouldn't pay the drivers enough.
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