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US cities pay too much for buses

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Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#571
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USPS has drastically different approach to mail deliver and pickup than most countries. Including as mentioned street-level mailboxes for both pickup and delivery, and general idea that really rural mail gets delivered direct still. In comparison, polish postal system although it's pretty much standard european approach: - postal trucks deliver mail between post offices - in cities and more built-up rural areas, on-f…

> instead of constantly starting and stopping to access road-side mailboxes Q: What's the (average) distance between deliveries to road-side mailboxes? I'm thinking of the average driving time between them, compared with the time to get out of a vehicle, put mail in a mailbox, and get back in the a vehicle... I know "mounted delivery routes" sound and feel more efficient, but just how much more efficient are they act…

USPS normal letter volumes are falling, but due to various stupid crap they are forced to deliver a lot of junk mail at low price. Political issue rather than technical.

The difference for parcel services is that, statistically, they do not deliver a parcel to everyone every time, making it way easier to do "p2p" because you're not canvassing a whole street.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the part where it seems like we're still missing some information. There is an unpatented formulation of the drug which is better enough that patients are willing to pay a large premium for it, but there is only one company making it. It can't be that the other companies don't like money, so what's the actual reason?

I think you misunderstand how US drug purchases work. There is very little competitive market whatsoever anywhere in the prescription med system; there are simply "brands" and "patented meds" and "generics" plus various underserved niches where pharma companies can extract high prices from desperate patients (see e.g., Martin Shkreli and Daraprim.) With respect to generics, there's little incentive to make a better f…

I was kind of curious if there was some specific failure with this outside of the general brokenness of US healthcare competition, but it's starting to sound like the classic one:

The biggest problem with US health insurance is that it's not actually insurance. The purpose of insurance is to cover major claims. If a storm does $30,000 in damage to your house, you file an insurance claim. If it does $30 in damage, you go to the hardware store and pay $30. But we expect health "insurance" to cover the little stuff. Health insurance should be for if you get cancer or need major surgery, not for a generic drug that ought to cost $30.

Which in turn is what messes up what could otherwise be a competitive market. Instead of picking who you want to buy the drug from, most people have insurance, and the insurance company picks. And then most people get insurance from their employer so they also don't get to pick their insurance which makes the insurance company unresponsive because the patient can't easily switch.

And then it sounds like what happened is that the manufacturers make nearly all of their sales through insurance, who only care about regulatory compliance, and there aren't enough people paying out of pocket to get them to compete on actual quality.

But the other problems shouldn't be there if we could get people actually buying what ought to be cheap generics themselves instead of through insurance:

> Plus, even in a functioning and truly competitive market, trying to experiment with different formulations to figure out which "gets better results" is a dangerous game for individuals; it's not like buying different Kleenex and deciding which holds together better. You have to do a lot of risky trial and error and get frequent blood tests.

This wouldn't be something most people would have to do themselves. If there are five companies making the same drug then forums for people with the condition it treats would have people already taking each of them, and if some of them are actually not right then aggregate data should show that, and then everybody would find out without each person having to do their own trials.

And somebody needs to be doing that anyway or you're going to have a lot of people whose medication is wrong who don't realize that it's because they're not getting what they paid for while the one that works is available from someone else.

> When we clearly end up paying dozens of times more than other countries (even for unpatented medicine) people raise the R&D issue to justify the costs.

But then we're back to, the trouble is that it's both.

And then people propose to have the government set prices, which is only trading one problem for another. Whereas what we ought to do is address the things causing the markets that are supposed to be competitive to not.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstand how US drug purchases work. There is very little competitive market whatsoever anywhere in the prescription med system; there are simply "brands" and "patented meds" and "generics" plus various underserved niches where pharma companies can extract high prices from desperate patients (see e.g., Martin Shkreli and Daraprim.) With respect to generics, there's little incentive to make a better f…

I was kind of curious if there was some specific failure with this outside of the general brokenness of US healthcare competition, but it's starting to sound like the classic one: The biggest problem with US health insurance is that it's not actually insurance. The purpose of insurance is to cover major claims. If a storm does $30,000 in damage to your house, you file an insurance claim. If it does $30 in damage, you…

Well, US health insurance is insurance. That’s one function. But it’s also managed healthcare. The management is being performed by a series of large corporations with somewhat broken incentives, with the government backstopping and certifying everything and filling in all the gaps. That’s why other countries achieve such better results with government-managed healthcare, because our system genuinely has very little relationship with the free market and already is a kind of planned system; it’s just an exceedingly inefficient planned system.

But the lesson you should take from this is not “we should just deregulate it a bit and hope the free market takes hold.” This is the planned system we designed in one of the most capitalist countries on earth: it got to the state of being a planned system because the truly competitive market systems kept failing. I’m not sure where you can go to find a truly competitive system that isn’t in some way underpinned and supported by the government (and the US government specifically.) People often point to third world countries where they can pay cash, but I think that’s mostly just rich US people buying luxury healthcare at lower prices, not a real working free-market health system that delivers broadly-shared results.

You have to entertain the hypothesis that when the ideal “free market system” exists nowhere, the reason is because the free market system was tried (here in the US, even) and it worked so poorly that it was replaced with one of the systems that survived. Because that’s the pattern we see everywhere with healthcare (and with roads and fire departments, too, outside of a few exceptions.)

The pharma investment problem is a problem, but just to be clear: it’s a question of financial allocation. There are many ways to solve it that aren’t what we have right now.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#574

"Federal funding typically covers 80% of bus purchases, with agencies responsible for the remainder." Well, there is your answer. The one making the purchase isn't the one primarily paying for the purchase. This makes them less sensitive to pricing. Kinda like how expensive healthcare is since it is paid for by insurance. Or how you don't care how much you put on your plate or what you choose to eat at an all you can…

> Kinda like how expensive healthcare is since it is paid for by insurance.

This seems different. A healthcare consumer (in the US) is overpaying in large part because (1) they need the coverage (2) they lack the expertise to distinguish between offerings and (3) there simply aren't more affordable offerings.

Single payer healthcare systems feature significantly lower costs and better quality despite that the payer is not the consumer.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've incentivized cities to develop around highways and the automobile infrastructure instead of building them for mass transit. You need cars because we build for cars.

It's not that we've incentivized cities to develop around highways, it's that we've prohibited them from doing anything other than that. Zoning boards put a tiny little strip of commercial and high density residential in the downtown and then require the whole rest of the map to be single-family homes. At that point it doesn't even matter what the downtown actually looks like, people are still going to be in cars bec…

These zoning board decisions were made largely to accommodate cars. For example, in many places, we can't have dense urban housing or commercial unless the developer pays to park all of the cars associated with the new development (so the cars don't consume public street parking). But this means we end up surrounding buildings with these giant parking lots which creates more space between each building, putting downward pressure on walking/transit and upward pressure on driving. This also means you need more lanes to accommodate the cars (the additional lanes also create more space between buildings and make pedestrian traffic considerably less desirable, putting more upward pressure on driving).

Tangentially, the additional length and width of roads as well as the traffic lights all constitute an increase in infrastructure costs while also reducing the amount of revenue generated per unit space (because so much more of the space is for streets and parking).

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t ask for your help other than accepting other opinions exist. In some cases the distinction is of high value. In some cases it’s at low cost. I’m of opinion this is low value and high cost, thus the cost benefit analysis fails. You’re free to disagree. Cop uniforms are low cost and serve a significantly higher purpose. Taxis being a distinct color is unnecessary too. If I can identify a Dominos delivery vehic…

> I didn’t ask for your help other than accepting other opinions exist. Perhaps you don't understand how HN works. When you give an opinion, other people can disagree. If you don't like what they say, don't complain that you "didn't ask for their help". If that's your attitude, perhaps internet forums are not the place for you.

Telling someone "If you don't understand this, I don't know how to help you." is unnecessary snide that I was addressing. It is an passive aggressive attempt to assert your opinion as the only valid opinion.

> Perhaps you don't understand how HN works.

You continue with unnecessary attempts at belittling, while thinking you're in the 'right'. Perhaps take your own advice regarding internet forum usage.

> When you give an opinion, other people can disagree.

Yes, I'm disagreeing politely. You're the one having trouble accepting it.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that we've incentivized cities to develop around highways, it's that we've prohibited them from doing anything other than that. Zoning boards put a tiny little strip of commercial and high density residential in the downtown and then require the whole rest of the map to be single-family homes. At that point it doesn't even matter what the downtown actually looks like, people are still going to be in cars bec…

These zoning board decisions were made largely to accommodate cars. For example, in many places, we can't have dense urban housing or commercial unless the developer pays to park all of the cars associated with the new development (so the cars don't consume public street parking). But this means we end up surrounding buildings with these giant parking lots which creates more space between each building, putting downw…

The space between buildings thing is a red herring. If you want an area full of tall buildings, there must be a significant amount of space between them to let in light and fresh air. You could hypothetically use that space for greenery or something instead of lanes and parking but you can't get rid of it and use it to increase density. Moreover, it isn't actually a density limit anyway because you can make the buildings taller instead of wider, and you can build a parking garage under the building rather than beside it.

The real thing minimum parking requirements do is increase cost, because building parking floors costs money. But that isn't nearly as much as the cost increase from zoning most of the map exclusively for single family homes, because that's the thing that makes the land expensive, and on top of that requires you to use 15+ story buildings in the limited area that allows them when you could have the same average density by using 3-5 story buildings over a wider area.

Moreover, you can't put the cart before the horse. If people currently live in the suburbs and arrive in cars, you can't expect them to walk before you allow anyone to build them housing within walking distance.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These zoning board decisions were made largely to accommodate cars. For example, in many places, we can't have dense urban housing or commercial unless the developer pays to park all of the cars associated with the new development (so the cars don't consume public street parking). But this means we end up surrounding buildings with these giant parking lots which creates more space between each building, putting downw…

The space between buildings thing is a red herring. If you want an area full of tall buildings, there must be a significant amount of space between them to let in light and fresh air. You could hypothetically use that space for greenery or something instead of lanes and parking but you can't get rid of it and use it to increase density. Moreover, it isn't actually a density limit anyway because you can make the build…

> The space between buildings thing is a red herring. If you want an area full of tall buildings, there must be a significant amount of space between them to let in light and fresh air.

First of all, I don't think anyone's goal is "an area full of tall buildings"; that's certainly not what I mean by "density" (although it is _one kind_ of density). Secondly, even in urban areas full of tall buildings, there's frequently much less space between buildings than a CostCo parking lot.

> Moreover, it isn't actually a density limit anyway because you can make the buildings taller instead of wider, and you can build a parking garage under the building rather than beside it.

Building vertically is expensive, and in many places land is cheaper, so it's easier to meet the legal requirement by surrounding the building with pavement than it is to build a parking garage beneath the structure. This is why you rarely see a Walmart with an underground parking garage (and when you do, it's usually in a dense city with more lax parking regulations).

> Moreover, you can't put the cart before the horse. If people currently live in the suburbs and arrive in cars, you can't expect them to walk before you allow anyone to build them housing within walking distance.

I think you're confused about what is being advocated. No one is suggesting we make everyone walk to work. I don't think that's a realistic outcome, and probably not a desirable one for many people (who wants to work close to a factory, airport, etc)? More importantly, relaxing parking requirements on developers doesn't make the existing parking lots go away, so it doesn't really affect the current crop of commuters; it just means that future suburban commuters will lean more on public transit to get to work.

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the other kinds of insurance

Ah yes, like the health insurance market, so competitive it took a CEO murder to fix abusive practices from the dominant actor. How compelling of an example, really.

To clarify, "other kinds of insurance" means not health insurance

Re: US cities pay too much for buses

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But undercutting the other insurers/providers should earn you more, if it were competitive, which I guess it's just not

Correct, which is another reason why they are buying the healthcare providers. It allows the insurers (“pay-viders”) to strong arm independent doctors and smaller insurers out of the market.

Ok, I get it now. No other explanation has made sense so far, it's a cartel.
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