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We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

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Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#571

Post by corimaith »

Barrin92 wrote: post #563
rafaelmn wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Day to day life has been more or less the same across all of them. This is a wild take, unless you mean that in thw sense of wake up, eat, work and sleep kind of way. If I call the prime minister a criminal liar - worst that will happen is I get a defamation lawsuit. In authoritarian countries I go to a prison camp, and the neighbors are the one to report me. Even if I'm not political - if step on toes of people in…

>unless you mean that in thw sense of wake up, eat, work and sleep kind of way. this is what 99% of people spend 99% of their time on. If you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet. This is why China makes the claim tha…

>If you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet.

Well, umm, far more people (rich, middle, poor) are emmigrating out of China with preference for Western Liberal Democracies than Westeners immigrating in. The thing is, in terms of job opportunities, the USA still far surpasses China for same amount of individual effort. And if I want to just live comfortably, Japan, Australia, Korea are all valid options.

Like even the abysmally poor birthrate dosen't reflect on China with regards to the long viability of what you describe.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#572

Post by gspencley »

NoGravitas wrote: post #555
gspencley wrote: post #147

> The only difference between your phone and China's social credit system is that China tells you what they're doing. We pretend our algorithmic reputation scores are just “user experience features.” At least Beijing admits they're gamifying human behavior. Um no. That is not the only difference by a LONG SHOT. If I want to evaluate whether or not I want to involve myself with you, in any capacity, then that negotiat…

> If I want to evaluate whether or not I want to involve myself with you, in any capacity, then that negotiation is between you and me. Congratulations on opting out of your business relationship with Experian, then.

What a weird straw-man. I said that, on an individual by individual basis, people get to decide what criteria are important to them and can discriminate (or not) accordingly. That if one entity doesn't want to work with another, there are lots of other permutations that an environment of liberty allows for. As opposed to a government mandated system where everyone is forced into the same criteria under threat of penalty.

I did not say, or even suggest, that the absence of a social credit system somehow results in everyone wanting to do business with you under any circumstance, and that you can opt out of the criteria that someone else uses to decide if they want to associate with you.

I really cannot understand how you were able to twist the meaning of what I had written so dramatically. Or are you just trolling?

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#573

Post by corimaith »

NoGravitas wrote: post #542
jl6 wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US being imperfect, or currently on an authoritarian swing, in no way makes it equivalent to countries that are all-in on authoritarianism. The US is still among the very best places in the world to be a minority, politically active, or in legal trouble.

I think you are greatly underestimating how hard it has been, historically, in the US, to be a minority, politically active, or in legal trouble. Note that in the Cold War, many people, especially minorities, were indefinitely imprisoned with show trials (e.g. Mumia Abu-Jamal, Assata Shakur, Leonard Peltier) or extrajudicially killed (Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, Marsha P. Johnson, the victims of…

Let's not perfect be the enemy of good. OP is making a relative judgement, not an absolute one. And in authoritarian countries, figures like Jack Ma are dissappeared for far less, while radicals like you mention are just shot and silenced. You are not going to be allowed to build a alternative power structure that can challenge authority regardless if your views are valid or not.

Might be a hard metric for some people to confront, but the USA is one the least racist countries in the world. The gridlock in many ways is strongest signal of excessive plurality and minoritarianism (of marginalized groups) than of single power groups unilaterally controlling things.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#574

Post by ranger_danger »

ch4s3 wrote: post #569
immibis wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you not bank, if all the banks are colluding against you? And still have the rest of your rights? Can you rent without a four times yearly inspection by the landlord?

> Can you rent without a four times yearly inspection by the landlord? I've literally never heard of this. > Can you not bank, if all the banks are colluding against you? And still have the rest of your rights? All the banks? There are 3,917 commercial banks and 545 savings and loan associations in the US. It's probably the most banks per-capita of any country. You'd be hard press to not be able to even work with a l…

I've been renting for 20 years and only ever had an inspection once.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#575

Post by margalabargala »

corimaith wrote: post #571
Barrin92 wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>unless you mean that in thw sense of wake up, eat, work and sleep kind of way. this is what 99% of people spend 99% of their time on. If you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet. This is why China makes the claim tha…

>If you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet. Well, umm, far more people (rich, middle, poor) are emmigrating out of China with preference for Western Liberal Democracies than Westeners immigrating in. The thing is, i…

Plenty of people are emigrating from China to Singapore, which is not particularly less authoritarian.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#576

Post by StopDisinfo910 »

specproc wrote: post #335
Bukhmanizer wrote: post #92

The issue is that American media/discourse paints a very distorted view of what life under authoritarian rule is like. The truth is in many countries, unless you’re some kind of minority, politically active, or in legal trouble, day-to-day life is mostly similar to life in the west. But people don’t want to hear that, because we want to feel better than them. Like we wouldn’t tolerate that kind of life. Of course the…

Yeah, this is it. I've lived under governments of a variety of different stripes in some very different parts of the world, I've lived in war zones. Day to day life has been more or less the same across all of them. You go shopping, go to work, see friends, have a few beers or maybe a smoke, eat out, go to weddings, birthdays and funerals, play sports. People run businesses, post memes. The way non-OECD, "non-democra…

It sure is good being a foreigner in an autocratic country. You are most likely there there for business. You don’t really care about anything because you will leave anyway. Most of my coworkers in Singapore were all like that. Who cares about the mass deportation of bus drivers after their strikes for better working condition? Why look at what’s behind the curtain when you can enjoy the pool?

I have met people who have fled autocratic countries. Life sure looks ok there from a surface level. Unless of course you are from the extended family of someone who displeased someone better connected. Or you are in the way of someone. Or you happen to have said something which displeased someone. Then life is not ok at all and there is approximately nothing you can do about it.

Of course everyone there knows that’s how it works. That’s why everyone there shuts up and lower their head because they don’t want to be the idiot having a run up with the power that be.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#577

Post by corimaith »

margalabargala wrote: post #575
corimaith wrote: post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you give most people the choice between a place that has jobs, clean trains and where women can walk safely at night and one that looks like the Purge but you can insult the prime minister we can make a bet how people will vote with their feet. Well, umm, far more people (rich, middle, poor) are emmigrating out of China with preference for Western Liberal Democracies than Westeners immigrating in. The thing is, i…

Plenty of people are emigrating from China to Singapore, which is not particularly less authoritarian.

Singapore is much less authoritarian than China. The PAP plays dirty in a legal way, but they very much obey rule of law as opposed to explicit Rule By Law in the CCP. They also don't effectively declare themselves God as the ultimate authority and moral arbiters of the nation.

Like, having mandatory bomb checks in your metro systems is already on the excessive and comical side of authoritarianism here. Most countries, even poorer ones don't do that.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#578

Post by NoGravitas »

corimaith wrote: post #573
NoGravitas wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are greatly underestimating how hard it has been, historically, in the US, to be a minority, politically active, or in legal trouble. Note that in the Cold War, many people, especially minorities, were indefinitely imprisoned with show trials (e.g. Mumia Abu-Jamal, Assata Shakur, Leonard Peltier) or extrajudicially killed (Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, Fred Hampton, Marsha P. Johnson, the victims of…

Let's not perfect be the enemy of good. OP is making a relative judgement, not an absolute one. And in authoritarian countries, figures like Jack Ma are dissappeared for far less, while radicals like you mention are just shot and silenced. You are not going to be allowed to build a alternative power structure that can challenge authority regardless if your views are valid or not. Might be a hard metric for some peopl…

Jack Ma was not, in fact, disappeared, though? He lay low for several months while being investigated for financial crimes. He is still the largest stakeholder in Alibaba, and still has a net worth around $27B. It's not even like his assets were frozen.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#579

Post by ux266478 »

hiatus wrote: post #560
causal wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, missing the point - it is a system that has become a centralized digital scoring mechanism. This is dangerous because it centralizes power, giving institutions that are not even under democratic control the power to punish individuals or groups as they see fit across all sectors of life.

This is sensational. You said > Credit scores are used for a lot more than finances. but you can't provide a concrete example. > giving institutions that are not even under democratic control Which institutions? Banks? Landlords? Other people trusting you with their property? > the power to punish individuals or groups as they see fit across all sectors of life. Where? How?

Is it reasonable to expect concrete examples of ephemeral decision making that happens within opaque organizations, given that the overwhelming majority are not held to explicit disclosure of their decision, let alone a verified paper trail held to such a rigorous standard to count for reasonable proof?

The best you can hope for from a potential employer is to be told they hired someone else. The default experience in America seems to be that they'll simply ghost you.

Re: We already live in social credit, we just don't call it that

#580

Post by throwawayq3423 »

scarmig wrote: post #168
throwawayq3423 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your credit score in America will never be used to deny your freedom of movement within America or go against you or any of your family members when applying for higher education. It is a fundamentally flawed comparison.

It will, however, be used to determine whether you can rent or buy a home or increasingly even get a job. Freedom: same outcomes, but modulated through the market!

> determine whether you can rent or buy a home

Yes, that's the point of a credit score.

> increasingly even get a job

Do you have any citation of proof of this? I've never heard of this happening even once.

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