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“No tax on tips” is an industry plant

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Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#571

Post by insane_dreamer »

amosslade wrote: post #466

My daughter works at a mid-tier restaurant 35 hours a week and makes more than my wife who is a math teacher, department head, and has many years of teaching experience. Eliminating tips and increasing the base wage is a stupid idea. All the talented servers who love the job will leave and mediocre people will replace them.

except that most people -- including me -- hate it

raise prices by 20% and drop "mandatory" tips which is what they have become

then tipping can go back to what it was -- optional extra to reward excellent service, not an unspoken part of the bill

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#572

Post by unsignedint »

afthonos wrote: post #318
walterbell wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are there still customers giving tips as "a reward for good service"? Are there customers giving tips for other reasons? Any examples?

In the US, the tip is an expected part of the expense of eating out (and increasingly having any human in the loop). I hate it, and I really wish it wasn’t the case, but it pretty much is. If you say “I didn’t tip because the service was what I expected”, you’re pretty much considered an asshole. (Incidentally, this is also one of the reasons why the costs of eating out in the US and seem so much lower. Most people w…

In my personal experience, the belief that “you should tip no matter what” is surprisingly pervasive. Anecdotally, I once had a situation where a restaurant completely dropped the ball—they brought me a cup of coffee, then never returned to take my order, even after I asked. After wasting my time, I had to leave and eat elsewhere. I didn’t leave a tip, yet many of my peers insisted I still should have. I disagree. The idea of tipping someone for poor service—especially when they’re clearly not even trying—is, frankly, sickening. If that makes me the a-hole in these situations, so be it—I’d rather be that than reward apathy.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#573

Post by apelapan »

rtp4me wrote: post #491
apelapan wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does sitting down cause you to tip? Why would employees in front of a counter be more deserving than employees behind a counter? Or perhaps I should put it like: Why would a business need to pay a predictable market rate salary for employees behind the counter, but not for employees in front of the counter (because you step in and provide it instead)?

Because the person serving a beer at a bar simply poured me a beer. I walked up to the bar where I ordered from the menu. The level of interaction with staff = 1. Effort from staff = 1. The the waiter/waitress had to come to my table, discuss the menu, provide feedback on questions, submitted order to kitchen, delivered order, checked back on us to see if we need anything else, etc. Level of interaction with staff >…

So how many hours is the walking waiter working in a day, and how many hours is the standing waiter working?

If anything it seems to me that it would be more logical to tip the person doing the more boring and repetitive work.

(My personal opinion is that tipping in general is a blight on a modern society and something that belong in primitive third-world economies. The way to fix this is via legislation: we simply make all forms of both receiving and giving tips illegal. It probably won't take much enforcement to quickly shift the social norms and economic practices once the wheels get rolling).

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#574

Post by 9rx »

shazbotter wrote: post #568
g3f32r wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the minimum quantity of money a server can be paid after a 1 hour shift? If it's the same in both cases, that's his point.

I understand their point. What's the minimum a business has to pay for a one hour shift? That's the point that all the parents above them are concerned with. So a semantic argument is needlessly pedantic.

> What's the minimum a business has to pay for a one hour shift?

Minimum wage. You can credit that with tips in some places, but you also have to credit the customer in those cases (not legally, but they aren't coming if you don't), so the net is the same.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#575

Post by hnarn »

cestith wrote: post #488
hnarn wrote: post #249

I’d honestly like to hear from someone who is a proponent of tipping how they think it makes any sense. By that I don’t mean I need the reason for tipping explained to my, everybody understands the argument for why you should tip: but how does it make sense when you consider who you tip and who you don’t?

Do you understand the part about how the tipped minimum wage being so much lower was born largely out of racism?

Even if that's true, what does that have to do with anything?

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#576

Post by aprilthird2021 »

taeric wrote: post #440
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we tip restaurant workers but not janitors or phone customer service reps? Why are they better than other types of service workers?

Phone reps, of course, have the difficulty of not being in physical contact with you. The others, though, my grandparents actually would tip house cleaners. Would get annoyed if we left out cash in the hotel, as "you should only do that if you are wanting the help staff to have it. And then, you should do it in an obvious way so that they don't feel like they are stealing." I distinctly remember them writing notes an…

House cleaners and hotel help are not janitors, but all of our workplaces are cleaned by them. We don't tip them, or the front desk people at any doctor's office, or the traffic crossing guards at any school, or the EMTs at the hospital, or the ticket taker at a movie theater.

There's a huge list of people you interact with daily who don't get tax free tips. Why are they less valuable than restaurant workers? That was my question.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#577

Post by aprilthird2021 »

lazide wrote: post #382
aprilthird2021 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should we tip restaurant workers but not janitors or phone customer service reps? Why are they better than other types of service workers?

Well, one does handle your food before you eat it - and before you’ve seen it.

Love the idea that threatening people into giving you a tax exempt handout is anything other than a mafia move

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#578

Post by godelski »

kelnos wrote: post #221
godelski wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this would happen less often if people didn't just spread hopelessness

Or maybe that's a logical reaction to the situation these people live in.

Sure, it is logical. But that doesn't mean it is a good reaction. Certainly it doesn't help make the problem go away.

Don't confuse "logical" with "correct" or even make the false notion that there is a "correct" reaction. The "right" reaction depends on your goals, short term and long term.

But defeatist attitude results in a tragedy of the commons situation. It's social debt. Think of it like a mess. Messes are easiest to clean up right after they occur. But as time goes on, it becomes harder to clean. If everyone is doing their share of their work messes are very manageable. But if people don't do their share, then it must be picked up by everyone else, right? I think most of us have been in a situation where we've had to clean up "everybody's" mess (if you haven't, you might be that asshole leaving that mess). The defeatist attitude is like that person grumbling "it's too big of a mess, we'll never clean it up." Well... not with that attitude. If the mess needs to be cleaned up, it needs to be cleaned up. Either you help or you make it worse for everyone else.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#579

Post by taeric »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #576
taeric wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phone reps, of course, have the difficulty of not being in physical contact with you. The others, though, my grandparents actually would tip house cleaners. Would get annoyed if we left out cash in the hotel, as "you should only do that if you are wanting the help staff to have it. And then, you should do it in an obvious way so that they don't feel like they are stealing." I distinctly remember them writing notes an…

House cleaners and hotel help are not janitors, but all of our workplaces are cleaned by them. We don't tip them, or the front desk people at any doctor's office, or the traffic crossing guards at any school, or the EMTs at the hospital, or the ticket taker at a movie theater. There's a huge list of people you interact with daily who don't get tax free tips. Why are they less valuable than restaurant workers? That wa…

Fair, I left out that they also gifted janitors, but they did. Is not unheard of to send gifts to mail delivery staff. Basically, anyone you ever interacted with on a regular basis.

Re: “No tax on tips” is an industry plant

#580

Post by quantummagic »

kelnos wrote: post #210
quantummagic wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're asking how a tip can influence a server, if they don't know it's coming. But in America they do know it's coming, at least, there is a cultural norm of tipping being expected. So it makes sense that a server would do what it takes, to make sure that it happens.

So in other words, you'd still get good service without tipping at all in places like the US. Granted, it might be awkward when it comes time to leave, and if they'd recognize you, you may not want to go back.

Yes, there are antisocial people who disregard social norms. But there are enough people who play along to have a major impact on how service providers behave.
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