Do not download the app, use the website • Hacker News Board

Re: Do not download the app, use the website

#571

Post by akdev1l » Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 1:54 PM UTC

gargan wrote: post #551

kelthuzad wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We had instructions for how to pin the site to your home screen, and would explain to users how the website does everything an app can do. Still, constant requests for an app. This is the result of the inconsistent user experience to which gatekeepers like Apple have been actively contributing through active sabotage of web apps, such that all profitable apps can be more effectively and reliably taxed through Apple'…

Isn't the Mac way a good thing though? For example everything on Windows is moving to web apps where I feel they can load just as many trackers onto you eg https://www.theverge.com/news/710509/whatsapp-windows-app-we... Whereas on Mac, Meta are keeping their native app presumably because they can't be in the Mac app store with just a web wrapper But maybe I've just got the exact delusion youre talking about in that I…

Most apps on Mac are not on the App Store

You download a DMG file or something, then you drag and drop some icon into your “applications” folder

It is kind of dumb. I haven’t seen any graphical package manage interface to handle this.

Re: Do not download the app, use the website

#572

Post by akdev1l » Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 1:57 PM UTC

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #482

kelthuzad wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If web apps were any good, we'd see a plethora of them on Android. There are none (or very, very, very few). This statement alone is evidence that you didn't understand the crux of the issue. You are also confusing cause and effect. I clearly explained the root causes for that. The reason there are not more web apps is not that they aren't "good" - what does that even mean? what is the criterion for "good" here? If…

> Web Apps need to become just Apps. Apps built with the free and open web need equal treatment and integration. Closed and heavily taxed proprietary ecosystems should not receive any preference. That basically already exists on the desktop in the form of Electron apps. Those apps are universally hated because of it. Web technology is not suitable for making applications. It was designed to format text documents and…

> Those apps are universally hated because of it.

Maybe they are hated by nerds on reddit and hackernews.

I gather most people are just using the apps and have no idea how they’re built.

Re: Do not download the app, use the website

#573

Post by tpmoney » Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 2:03 PM UTC

socalgal2 wrote: post #251

andrewstuart2 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

500MB average seems like a gross exaggeration. I agree apps are oversize but I have maybe 2 native apps on mobile that are so large.

Average, yes, probably an exaggeration. Some apps iOS: wechat: 740meg gmail: 672 google chat: 585 uber: 582 tiktok: 572 headspace: 498 instagram: 467 doulingo: 462 bank of america: 456 capital one: 435 expedia: 412 linkedin: 402 doordash: 392 google: 379 facebook: 365 unitied airlines:355 chase: 352 google photos: 348 line: 346 amex: 339 google maps: 336 youtube: 329 booking.com: 320 citi: 319 amazon music: 317 snapc…

> of course Apple doesn't list the size of their own apps like Apple Maps, Photos, Music, etc...

You can find that in the phone storage settings:

    iOS:           12 G
    Keynote:      498 M
    Numbers:      482 M
    Pages:        455 M
    Clips:        213 M
    Maps:          81 M
    Watch:         70 M
    Find My:       60 M
    Music:         38 M
    iTunes U:      35 M
    Support:       34 M
    Podcasts:      32 M
    Books:         31 M
    iCloud Drive:  30 M
    Freeform:      19 M
    Fitness:       18 M
    Notes:         17 M
    Journal:       15 M
    Home:          10 M
    App Store:      8 M
    Weather:        8 M
    Mail:           7 M
    Files:          4 M
    Health:         3 M
    Measure:        3 M
    Voice Memos:    3 M
    Calendar:       2 M
    Clock:          2 M
    Safari:         2 M
    Shortcuts:      2 M
    Translate:      2 M
    TV:             2 M
    Calculator:     1 M
    Facetime:       1 M
    iTunes Store:   1 M
    Tips:           1 M
    Wallet:       934 K
    Messages:     860 K
    Photos:       791 K
    Compass:      712 K
    Camera:       635 K
    Contacts:     598 K
    Phone:        570 K
    Magnifier:    516 K
    Passwords:    213 K

There's also an "Apple Inc." listing, which appears to be "shared" between a lot of their apps which clocks in at 204M

My takeaway from having gone through the list and compared to the various 3rd party apps:

1) Apps can absolutely be smaller. Plenty of stuff in the 2) Games are often big, but there's a surprising number of "simple" apps that are larger than some of the games

3) The largest apps seem to be from companies that you would expect to be doing the most tracking of your data

4) Apple's first party app sizes probably explain a little about why they weren't in a hurry to upgrade storage sizes

Re: Do not download the app, use the website

#574

Post by jdiff » Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 2:04 PM UTC

kelthuzad wrote: post #564

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Web Apps need to become just Apps. Apps built with the free and open web need equal treatment and integration. Closed and heavily taxed proprietary ecosystems should not receive any preference. That basically already exists on the desktop in the form of Electron apps. Those apps are universally hated because of it. Web technology is not suitable for making applications. It was designed to format text documents and…

>That basically already exists on the desktop in the form of Electron apps. Those apps are universally hated because of it. Discord and Visual Studio Code are among the most popular apps on mac, those are electron apps. None of that is relevant to the core issue either way. It's not up to Apple to decide any of that, that's what the market and regulators are for. Apple uses and pushes self-serving and false narrative…

You really haven't. You are up and down this thread saying these things, but you haven't already proven them or even addressed them.

You have points, I agree that web technology is well suited in 2025 to make interactive applications. I agree that web apps are being held back from expressing their true potential. And while Electron is largely skewered for being bloated and heavy, the web can be fast and fluid.

But you haven't proven that web apps don't feel janky, fragile, and out of place. Because they just factually do. The native UI elements of each OS that you can tap into from the web is limited, and not enough to create the same UI in a WebView that you can in a native Swift app, for instance. You of course can coerce the web into imitating any appearance you care to recreate, but it won't look that way by default, and it'll now look even more starkly out of place on every other platform besides the single one you targeted. This is all an intentional aspect of the web as a cross-platform platform.

The web's internet-native status means a bad internet connection or a brief crossing through a dead zone will kill almost any web app. Yes, there's strategies around this with web workers nowadays, but those are quite complex to implement for even simple applications and often aren't worth the effort to do anything more than pop up a branded "you're offline" page. An app can be completely cut off from the internet, it doesn't have that base assumption of network connectivity and isn't built from the ground up from network-based parts.

Re: Do not download the app, use the website

#575

Post by happyopossum » Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 2:06 PM UTC

zelphirkalt wrote: post #476

tempestn wrote: post #384

At AutoTempest we resisted making an app for years, because anything that a hypothetical app could do, we could do with the website. And in my opinion, when searching for cars, it's more convenient to be in your browser where you can easily open new tabs, bookmark results, etc. And for years, it was our most requested feature, by far. We had instructions for how to pin the site to your home screen, and would explain…

Most people don't know how to use a computer well. Most people are just slightly above computer-illiterate. They were introduced to phones which have apps. Now in their minds that's how everything must be. Anything else induces fear into their minds. While technically competent people might go: "Oh neat, I don't even need to install an app, if I just put the website icon onto my home screen." Most users are like: "Oh…

This is an unnecessarily rude and reductive take. Tons of people without your exalted computer science background are perfectly competent and comfortable with using computers “well”.

Their mental model of how they LIKE to use them is different from yours though - and that should be ok instead of arousing angst.

Re: Do not download the app, use the website

#576

Post by jdiff » Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 2:08 PM UTC

akdev1l wrote: post #571

gargan wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the Mac way a good thing though? For example everything on Windows is moving to web apps where I feel they can load just as many trackers onto you eg https://www.theverge.com/news/710509/whatsapp-windows-app-we... Whereas on Mac, Meta are keeping their native app presumably because they can't be in the Mac app store with just a web wrapper But maybe I've just got the exact delusion youre talking about in that I…

Most apps on Mac are not on the App Store You download a DMG file or something, then you drag and drop some icon into your “applications” folder It is kind of dumb. I haven’t seen any graphical package manage interface to handle this.

The App Store is the graphical package manager interface. Or in the case of apps that haven't published, the Finder/Applications folder itself. It makes a lot of sense, similar to the way GoboLinux stashed packages in its new world filesystem hierarchy. One folder, one package.

Re: Do not download the app, use the website

#577

Post by happyopossum » Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 2:08 PM UTC

Einenlum wrote: post #463

tempestn wrote: post #384

At AutoTempest we resisted making an app for years, because anything that a hypothetical app could do, we could do with the website. And in my opinion, when searching for cars, it's more convenient to be in your browser where you can easily open new tabs, bookmark results, etc. And for years, it was our most requested feature, by far. We had instructions for how to pin the site to your home screen, and would explain…

I remember when ChatGPT was released. I talked about it to a friend who is not technical. She said "oh wow, I really need to try it". She later said "I couldn't find the app in my AppStore". I kept saying they had a website and why would you need an app. She couldn't understand what I was saying. Seems like indeed the general public really likes apps and even thinks you can't do so many things in the browser.

> She couldn't understand what I was saying

I don’t buy this for one second. The web is well known, and well understood - I’ve never run into anyone, in any age group, with any level of education, who wouldn’t understand what a website is.

Either you’re being overly dramatic and exaggerating here, or you had a very difficult time pronouncing the words you were intending to say.

Re: Do not download the app, use the website

#578

Post by macNchz » Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 2:10 PM UTC

bambax wrote: post #491

tempestn wrote: post #384

At AutoTempest we resisted making an app for years, because anything that a hypothetical app could do, we could do with the website. And in my opinion, when searching for cars, it's more convenient to be in your browser where you can easily open new tabs, bookmark results, etc. And for years, it was our most requested feature, by far. We had instructions for how to pin the site to your home screen, and would explain…

This is a very interesting, but it doesn't explain why companies push so hard to download their apps. It's even contradictory: since it seems users want apps so much, there should be no need to push them.

Businesses want you to use their app for a few reasons: it’s stickier because they can start sending you push notifications right away without even signing in/making an account, they get their logo right on your home screen, there are expedited login methods available like FaceID, they bypass most normal ad blocking so they can show users ads but also get much more reliable telemetry, they get access to APIs that allow them to request/slurp additional user data like your contacts list, persistent location services, and camera roll metadata, plus they can access a broader set of system APIs for fingerprinting purposes (even if against the ToS).

Then there’s a measurement element where app installs became an important KPI around the time ad blocking became more popular and interfered with detailed website engagement tracking, creating a self-fulfilling kind of thing.

On top of this I think another factor is that many websites are in terrible shape, super bloated by ten thousand tracking pixels and third party snippets added willy nilly by marketing teams using Tag Manager, so apps benefit from gatekeeping that bloat to a degree.

Re: Do not download the app, use the website

#579

Post by thiht » Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 2:11 PM UTC

zelphirkalt wrote: post #476

tempestn wrote: post #384

At AutoTempest we resisted making an app for years, because anything that a hypothetical app could do, we could do with the website. And in my opinion, when searching for cars, it's more convenient to be in your browser where you can easily open new tabs, bookmark results, etc. And for years, it was our most requested feature, by far. We had instructions for how to pin the site to your home screen, and would explain…

Most people don't know how to use a computer well. Most people are just slightly above computer-illiterate. They were introduced to phones which have apps. Now in their minds that's how everything must be. Anything else induces fear into their minds. While technically competent people might go: "Oh neat, I don't even need to install an app, if I just put the website icon onto my home screen." Most users are like: "Oh…

Why do you think people have to be "computer illiterate" to prefer apps? That’s pretty narrow, and obviously just an explanation you came up with to fit your mental model.

I just find apps more practical and convenient than websites in a browser most of the time, on my phone.

Re: Do not download the app, use the website

#580

Post by dylan604 » Sat, Jul 26, 2025, 2:15 PM UTC

charcircuit wrote: post #510

arthurbrown wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monopoly, network effect

Like the other posters you are giving reasons why people will not switch to alternatives, but you are failing to argue why people are stuck using an app that provides no value.

for one, it's a nice little icon on the desktop of their device. you click it, and it launches the very thing you are looking to do. a browser means you have to click to open the browser. then you have to type the specific URL which is already something way more demanding than clicking the single icon even if they do remember the URL.

for another, devs are definitely making the web experience subpar which has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread. most websites are just adverts for their apps if they function at all any more. loading a website on mobile is even worse than desktop as they pester you with "it's better in the app" pop ups.

people find browsing an app store much easier than browsing the web. in fact, do people browse the web at all any more. search is shit now, so discovery by search is not what it used to be. click through from search is also plummeting as "search assistant" type responses means no reason to click through to sites.

how many more reasons do you need?