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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#571

Post by const_cast »

Ratelman wrote: post #525
b00ty4breakfast wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there's still regular ol classism, too, racism is just part of the calculus. Poor white folks don't have it good, they just have it less bad than poor not-white folks

In America maybe, in south africa it's quite the opposite considering the government provides a lot more support for poor non-white folks than for white folks (specifically based om race)

Yes, a bastion of pro-black racism, post-apartheid South Africa.

All those white folks fleeing the country looking like the fucking Monopoly Man with their bags of money were doing it because of... anti-white racism.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#572

Post by const_cast »

stretchwithme wrote: post #454
jacksnipe wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but citation needed. Means testing might seem “obvious” from first principles, but from a policy point of view, it makes little to no sense. The macroeconomic effects of welfare programs create a society that is better for everyone to live in. Reducing the issue to a matter of personal responsibility is a reframing that allows you to completely lose sight of the big picture, and create programs that are destin…

Citation needed for the right to other people's money. Government running charity interferes with the normal feedback in society. And the need to ask politely, justify one's apparently bad decisions and change failing behavior. People become "entitled" to regular cash so a lot of the fear that ordinarily motivates the rest of us goes away. Any system that asks nothing of people is a bad system. I grew up on welfare.…

> Citation needed for the right to other people's money.

It's called taxation, it's codified in law. Like... literally. I don't think you could find a better citation for "rights" than that. Jesus Christ.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#573

Post by const_cast »

IshKebab wrote: post #526
verall wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing sounds wrong to me in any of the cases you mentioned? > £400/month help with her bills because she struggles with time management? I'm sympathetic to her problems but that is a shit ton of money! £4800/yr is a shit ton of money? Things must be pretty rough over there! > Child benefit also goes to lots of people (myself included) who totally don't need it. Is that a bad thing?

> £4800/yr is a shit ton of money It's a shit ton of money for the government to just pay to people . I wasn't saying it's enough money to live on or anything. Obviously. > Is that a bad thing? The government is just a little short on money and they're wasting it by giving WFA and child benefit to people who definitely don't need it. This should be obvious.

> for the government to just pay to people

Right, but they're not, because this isn't what's happening. There's a reason they're paying her. Otherwise you would be getting the money too, but you're not.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#574

Post by belter »

MaKey wrote: post #450
belter wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That explanation based on lies by the tech staff, is another variation of the Volkswagen explanation that the emissions scandal, were just some low level engineers. The essence of this story is how the UK establishment can lie, and be corrupt to levels that will shame big time criminals. [1] "...Vennells was the CEO of Post Office Ltd during the latter part of the Post Office scandal, which involved more than 900 sub…

Why is she not in jail?

Wait until you hear about the CBE..

"Vennells had been appointed Commander of the Order of the British Empire (CBE) in 2019..."

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#575

Post by lanfeust6 »

wat10000 wrote: post #567
lanfeust6 wrote: post #565

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heart attacks can and do happen regardless of optimal diet and lifestyle, but notwithstanding, indeed CVd can be likened to a slow-motion suicide, like cigarettes, given modern knowledge most people are aware of. No one is saying outside factors aren't part of it. But you cannot negate or mitigate the fact that people make a choice with suicide that is not inevitable. Your last questions are irrelevant and pointless

How are questions about someone committing suicide irrelevant and pointless in a conversation about that exact topic?

Because its obvious. The margin case of escaping certain and imminent painful death in favour of another kind is not working in your favor. Yes they are responsible for their actions, yes they have agency. It is still suicide but that is a moot point when you are choosing between deaths. Here too, jumping is not something that invariably happens. That doesnt make it a bad thing. That is a value judgment that depends on the circumstance of the alternative being factually and irreparably worse.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#576

Post by lanfeust6 »

Hercuros wrote: post #408
lanfeust6 wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That words matter is why I'm in opposition, as this diminishes agency in people. Today I would say that framing suicide as "immoral" in secular society is banal and has no traction, but most, excepting certain circumstances, would suggest it is a bad choice. That surely follows if you as well as I would try to talk an able person out of suicide. I don't think it helps to diminish agency as though suicide is an inevit…

The person you are replying to shared some research by experts on the topic giving recommendations. You can argue for or against anything, but it’s useful to at least engage with the evidence being presented.

Did you look at the link? Its just a long list. There is no point in there to engage with, and regardless the point of contention is not reporting in abstract, its the exact terminology of "commit suicide", its not even clear that is explored at all.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#577

Post by lmm »

foldr wrote: post #532
lmm wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Any company has the right to bring a private prosecution under UK law That's a simplification. The Post Office has a more privileged position due to its history; it has both formal access (e.g. to police computers) and informal deference from CPS that regular companies do not enjoy.

That’s true, but it’s unclear the extent to which any of that was a factor. For example, how was the Post Office’s access to the PNC relevant here? It may be that the CPS would have taken over these prosecutions and dropped them if the company in question had been, say, Tesco. But I don’t see how we can be sure of this.

> It may be that the CPS would have taken over these prosecutions and dropped them if the company in question had been, say, Tesco. But I don’t see how we can be sure of this.

I agree we can't know for sure. But I think it's a mistake to shrug it off and assume the fact it was the Post Office had nothing to do with how it played out.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#578

Post by reliabilityguy »

wat10000 wrote: post #506
reliabilityguy wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How come?

Because there often is an external attribute, especially if you consider illness to be “external” as is conventional for most deaths caused by illness.

Some illnesses are internal though, e.g., various genetic disorders people are born with, or some mental illnesses, etc.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#579

Post by account42 »

wagwang wrote: post #447
lawlessone wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way many think about welfare/unemployment/disability schemes. Constant hoops to jump through to prove they're looking for work or still incapable. Or in the case of illness to prove they're still sick. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59067101

[flagged]

Sometimes proving that you need it ends up costing more than the money that would have gone to people that didn't actually need it.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#580

Post by account42 »

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #465
stretchwithme wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed for the right to other people's money. Government running charity interferes with the normal feedback in society. And the need to ask politely, justify one's apparently bad decisions and change failing behavior. People become "entitled" to regular cash so a lot of the fear that ordinarily motivates the rest of us goes away. Any system that asks nothing of people is a bad system. I grew up on welfare.…

I would rather we have a system that is too generous and gets taken advantage of than one that is too parsimonious where people die for want of food and shelter that we could provide for them. We exist in a world where people can be unable to work or even advocate for themselves through no fault of their own. As we raise the bar for how people have to prove that they "need" help, there will be people who die because…

I'd also rather people get "free" benefits and perhaps spend some of their time doing something creative or otherwise useful to society but which doesn't pay than force everyone to take a job no matter how useless or even destructive it is.
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