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Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

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Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#571

Post by someNameIG »

csense wrote: post #531
cycomanic wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was bringing this up with a guy yesterday who was genuinely supporting the policies and somebody chimed in that they were not worried at all, because everyone wants to trade with the big boy in town. Trust is not important if they are afraid of you (I'm paraphrasing). Quite a different perspective, but it is consistent with an observation I made about a lot of US comments, people are quite happy for their country/g…

> "if you don't want it to be done to you don't do it to others" Doesn't work. We opened trade to China in the '70s. They took advantage of us, stealing IP, manipulating currency, paying their people terrible wages, crapping all over the environment. We let their companies freely in the US, they very severely restricted US business ventures in China. Detroit, a former shining city in the industrial heartland, is now…

The US economy is the largest in the world, disposable income, both average and median, are highest and second highest respectively. Median income is 30-40% higher than comparable developed economies, and significant higher than China.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per...

Even industrial output the US is second highest, and it's closer to first place than second.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sec...

And supporting a whole family on a single income well was a very narrow window of time, and it required the US to have no real economic competitors. Where US workers had no competition on the world stage, but their output was sold on the world stage. So even if the US go isolationist that's still never coming back.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#572

Post by tene80i »

photonthug wrote: post #546
csense wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "if you don't want it to be done to you don't do it to others" Doesn't work. We opened trade to China in the '70s. They took advantage of us, stealing IP, manipulating currency, paying their people terrible wages, crapping all over the environment. We let their companies freely in the US, they very severely restricted US business ventures in China. Detroit, a former shining city in the industrial heartland, is now…

For the people who want ^this guy to shut up but haven't engaged.. which part of the above is wrong? I can see hyperbole of "bandit infested ruin" pushing some buttons but otoh it's seems likely that crime is connected to general economic health.

It’s right and wrong. Globalisation has hurt the rust belt, but it’s also allowed for much cheaper goods, which many people have enjoyed. It’s also made other economies much richer, which has allowed them to purchase U.S. goods (China being an immense iPhone market, for example). It’s not zero sum. If the world economy grows, and the USA holds onto a massive slice of that growing pie, then the USA wins - as it has been doing.

And the part about life just being totally unaffordable now isn’t really to do with China stealing from the US - housing is catastrophically expensive in many countries, and is more to do with how it has evolved as an asset class than trade relationships.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#573

Post by JackYoustra »

lenerdenator wrote: post #559
JackYoustra wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean clearly nothing but why does that matter

Gotta have a hook. Look at how he did in the Upper Midwest in '24 vs. '20. That was through appealing to the manufacturing base. There are elements of that bloc that have wanted tariffs for decades. If you lay off people to send the stock price up, you are the enemy. If you do it to "protect American manufacturing", you're a hero. Well, to a very niche part of the voting public, but it's enough.

sure but you can basically say whatever you want. Remember the trump tax plan is just 'cut taxes on the rich and provide industrial subsidies' and that works just fine. No need to chop share prices while you're at it with a silly tariff.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#574

Post by AlecSchueler »

billy99k wrote: post #478
tock wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is the richest country in the world. That is the payback. Yet somehow the working class is screwed. People don't want to admit wealth distribution is the problem because that would make them "communists". It's an emotional response. I'm scared how far they take it.

"People don't want to admit wealth distribution is the problem because that would make them "communists"." If you are referring to taking wealth by force from people that earned it and giving to people that didn't earn it, yes it's 'communist'. There's nothing emotional about a methodology that has failed over and over again.

> If you are referring to taking wealth by force from people that earned it and giving to people that didn't earn it, yes it's 'communist'.

Like taking money generated by the labourer and giving it to the company owners to share with their idle families? And threatening unemployment and precariousness/homelessness for those who disagree? This seems to have failed again indeed

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#575

Post by JackYoustra »

lenerdenator wrote: post #561
JackYoustra wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interest rates didn't rise because of industrial revival acts; they rose because they had been artificially low for a decade and someone had to throw water on the economy to cool it lest hyperinflation hit. I hate "artificially low" why artificial? What makes something artificial and what makes it real? In economics, there's an idea of a natural interest rate: the interest rate which is the lowest under which infla…

> I hate "artificially low" why artificial? What makes something artificial and what makes it real? When people have cheap access to money, they spend it. When they spend it in such a manner that it outpaces the ability of the supply side to, well, supply , the result is inflation. And that's what we saw in '21 and '22. You had someone handing out PPP loans like candy and forgiving them outright, you had stimmy check…

> And that's what we saw in '21 and '22. You had someone handing out PPP loans like candy and forgiving them outright, you had stimmy checks (that weren't backed by anything real, but that's another story), you had people sitting around looking for stuff to pass lockdown with, etc.

Yes, this is my whole point. The American Rescue Act and subsequent policies that were very much propping up salient jobs (certainly not wfh tech jobs that are, definitionally, resistant to lockdowns) fueled inflation that led to the end of zero interest rate period which led to large layoffs in tech.

> Wanna have a bottle of water from Flint, MI?

Flint falsifies your point, it is a democratic bastion. If you'd expect that to radicalize people, it should be deep deep read.

> yeah, it is out-of-bounds conduct

Out of bounds is a social norm over time. Donald Trump, their far and away champion, gives such egregious conduct I can't read this with a straight face.

But we can go further back. Was 'just say no' not egregious enough for you? AIDS shaming? The vicious anger against gay people? I can take any snapshot of the past - conservatives will always be the cry bully at any of the years in time you want to pick.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#576

Post by AlecSchueler »

lunarlull wrote: post #440
sebmellen wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Devil’s advocate: If you (the US) massively subsidize the world order through your financial markets, military defense, and foreign aid, it’s only fair that you get to take advantage of your position. Historically, the US has done this at the expense of its working class. Now there is a populist feeling that we are owed a long due “payback” for our generosity. The Bernie/AOC left believe the payback is owed by our el…

> To the latter crowd, the kind of “bullying” behavior you describe is actually the equivalent of a gentle giant who never stood up for himself finally deciding that he won’t take any more shit. Assuming this generous interpretation is accurate, then it's a problem of ignorance of the people holding this view. Characterizing other countries as 'freeloaders' is exactly that - ignorance.

Also, what about all the coups, military operations, political pressure etc etc? Was that the gentle giant?

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#577

Post by gU9x3u8XmQNG »

anon291 wrote: post #224
gU9x3u8XmQNG wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree with this perspective. It’s surprising how few others seem to note this. Thanks for posting it.

And what is the solution?

I’m definitely not qualified to answer this.

I would like to say, from my perspective, that it seems to not matter how “good”, even “exceptional”, business listed on the stock market do; the outcome is hostile and negative to the customer/consumer. Costs have only gone up, dramatically so. In my case; entirely disproportionate to, if any, income increase coming in.

Market does good. Market does exceptional. The experience has generally been negative?

Market does bad? I expect a lot of us can connect the dots, and will no doubt be impacted again.

Maybe the market, in my perspective; is not a beneficial experience.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#578

Post by judahmeek »

remarkEon wrote: post #532
onetimeusename wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the tariffs can be undone by the next president. I think that would discourage any investment in industry here. Even if this works, I feel like there is now a political commitment to undoing the tariffs.

They can, yes. But this is likely harder than you think. Suppose Trump puts a bunch of tariffs on cheap Chinese tires so that American tires are price competitive again (no idea if this happened, this is a hypothetical). If the next president removes those tariffs it would look like fucking over the tire manufacturers in whichever swing state they live in.

That's only if American tire companies choose to invest as if the tariffs will stick around for longer than Trump does.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#579

Post by Jensson »

ipaddr wrote: post #521
paxys wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump's father lived to 93, and mother to 88. He doesn't have any serious medical conditions (that we know of). There isn't a high chance that he's going to die of natural causes in the next 4 years.

Natural causes?

It is likely he will get assassinated, it was already close once, so the poster just didn't include that in his calculations by saying natural causes.

Re: Trump's Tariffs Wipe Out over $6T on Wall Street in Epic Two-Day Rout

#580

Post by OJFord »

Gregaros wrote: post #430
OJFord wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what 'pretty young' is, apart from condescending, but I voted in it, so I remember as well as you do I imagine. Regardless of contemporaneous comparisons, the up-thread comment I initially replied to suggested there was some ongoing worse 'crisis' in the UK than the current situation in the US, if they meant to refer to Brexit it was not clear at all, regardless of whether anyone things that's an ongoing…

Sorry, the implication is that this is far worse than Brexit, but that this is the US’s Global Exit, riffing off the strong negative connotations in te US. I saw it from on Bluesky, but that linked here https://theradicalfederalist.substack.com/p/the-neoreactiona... - so, being framed as much worse than Brexit.

No worries, yours was clearer, it was the first indication I had that anyone meant to compare to Brexit, I just asked to clarify. 'up-thread comment' I meant was the bdelmas one I replied to that referred only to 'crisis like the UK is going through' without elaboration.
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