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FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

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Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#571

Post by Dylan16807 »

impossiblefork wrote: post #538
LorenPechtel wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly it comes down to the fees being presented at the end rather than at the beginning. You have to follow the process through to the end to figure out what it would cost which makes price comparisons much harder. Occasionally this is unavoidable--shipping charges. If they simply pass through what UPS charges, fine. Otherwise, they should be listed up front.

Ah, I'm thinking about EULAs etc. where people claim the right to change the agreement at any time etc. With regard to shipping charges, don't you choose your shipping options and get to see the price before buying?

Yes it's before buying, but the problem is that it's after almost everything else.

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#572

Post by runako »

FateOfNations wrote: post #565
runako wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if you can do that, then you might as well print it on the price tag (along with pre-tax price if you want). Fun fact: sales tax rates are not stable. Our state publishes quarterly tax changes at the county level; city-level changes are presumably too numerous for the state to publish in the same format. Inclusive pricing can obviously be done in-store, but it also more or less ensures that some of the items in…

At least here in California, the state collects the sales tax on behalf of all the local jurisdictions, so they publish and update them all simultaneously (twice a year) and in the same format.

Interesting...there must be a state law that requires jurisdictions to synchronize any changes to sales tax rates to a single calendar.

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#573

Post by foobarchu »

impossiblefork wrote: post #538
LorenPechtel wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly it comes down to the fees being presented at the end rather than at the beginning. You have to follow the process through to the end to figure out what it would cost which makes price comparisons much harder. Occasionally this is unavoidable--shipping charges. If they simply pass through what UPS charges, fine. Otherwise, they should be listed up front.

Ah, I'm thinking about EULAs etc. where people claim the right to change the agreement at any time etc. With regard to shipping charges, don't you choose your shipping options and get to see the price before buying?

You do before purchase, but generally not as part of the storefront product listing. That necessitates the seller already knowing where you'll be shipping it to, and that's traditionally the last step before purchase (whether that's best or not I can't say).

Sales tax is also usually added in at the very end, again because it depends on where the buyer is.

The difference here is that the "hidden junk fees" are just extra money they charge, with no real defence. For example, Ticketmaster loves their arbitrary "convenience fee", Airbnb was long known for "cleaning fees" (though they've improved here), etc. These are things that the seller knows they're going to charge beforehand and clearly they do this purely to trick our brains into thinking things are cheaper.

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#574

Post by m463 »

potato3732842 wrote: post #290
jfengel wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a move afoot to eliminate all regulations unless they've been specifically passed by Congress. Which is basically incapable of passing anything. Ironically, that inherent dysfunction is the main reason to suspect that won't happen. But politically, every regulation as automatically partisan, even when it has overwhelming support.

>There is a move afoot to eliminate all regulations unless they've been specifically passed by Congress. Which is basically incapable of passing anything. It's hard to argue with this in principal. The rules as law BS has been a band-aid over dysfunction. It needs to go. It'll hurt in the short term but should be more sustainable in the long term. That people will get more angry at congress for doing nothing is icing…

I wonder if building codes should be abolished.

then being a renter would be quite an adventure.

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#575

Post by mulmen »

lxgr wrote: post #558
mulmen wrote: post #551

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you live on the border of Oregon or Montana. Or in a city.

I live in a city, and I have no idea how much the total is going to be before going to checkout right now, so arguably that wouldn't be a change for the worse. This is at a merchant that, to say it lightly, has some prior knowledge of me and even has a drop-down menu to let me select the shipping destination out of my saved ones. So far, that's only used for determining shipping times and availabilities – so why not…

On an ecommerce site where you already selected your destination sure, the total can be displayed in some cases. How should volume discounts, coupons, and shipping incentives be handled?

What about a grocery store on the Oregon/Idaho border? Idaho charges sales tax to residents but that can be waived with an Oregon ID. Should this be reflected in the advertised price?

And what about billboard or TV advertisements or even banner ads on a webpage?

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#576

Post by [deleted] »

michaelmrose wrote: post #459
Ajedi32 wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Chevron deference never meant agencies can just make up and pass law Not on it's own, no. The bigger culprit there is the erosion of the nondelegation doctrine. But Chevron aggravated the problem by allowing agencies to stretch their authority beyond what even congress intended with little possibility of legal challenge. Interpreting the law is and should be the role of the courts, not the role of the agencies that…

Is there a well functioning large country that doesn't effectively govern this way? The US isn't well functioning its just rich

[deleted]

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#577

Post by michaelmrose »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #472
michaelmrose wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a well functioning large country that doesn't effectively govern this way? The US isn't well functioning its just rich

I think most democratic nations have a similar principle of separation of powers, so... almost all of them? The US is rich because it's well functioning.

Name one and detail how the administrative state differs

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#578

Post by lxgr »

mulmen wrote: post #575
lxgr wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a city, and I have no idea how much the total is going to be before going to checkout right now, so arguably that wouldn't be a change for the worse. This is at a merchant that, to say it lightly, has some prior knowledge of me and even has a drop-down menu to let me select the shipping destination out of my saved ones. So far, that's only used for determining shipping times and availabilities – so why not…

On an ecommerce site where you already selected your destination sure, the total can be displayed in some cases. How should volume discounts, coupons, and shipping incentives be handled? What about a grocery store on the Oregon/Idaho border? Idaho charges sales tax to residents but that can be waived with an Oregon ID. Should this be reflected in the advertised price? And what about billboard or TV advertisements or…

> How should volume discounts, coupons, and shipping incentives be handled?

I don't care, to be honest. If the merchant knows I can definitely get the cheaper rate without jumping through extra hoops, I don't see a problem in showing the lower price.

> What about a grocery store on the Oregon/Idaho border? Idaho charges sales tax to residents but that can be waived with an Oregon ID. Should this be reflected in the advertised price?

Wow, really? Fascinating/frustrating! There's always one more layer, I guess. Maybe... show two prices then? (I've seen this in duty free stores: Sometimes there's a "with international boarding pass only" price.)

> And what about billboard or TV advertisements or even banner ads on a webpage?

That seems like a case where I'd be fine with the net price being displayed. And yeah, I realize that then all other stores would be screaming unfair discrimination because people will compare the competition's flyer price to the in-store label price and everything...

Maybe the only solution really is to simplify the horror that is US sales tax, and that's obviously never happening. Think of all the jobs in tax preparation and software...

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#579

Post by HaZeust »

sbochins wrote: post #458

I’m not very confident this is going to survive our next “populist” administration. Whatever faults you can attribute to the current administration, the FTC has taken many actions that have been pro consumer over the past 4 years.

This will probably be what I'll miss most about Administration 46 - some crazy pro-consumer policies and motions for anti-trust, price gouging, and corporate transparency have happened in 2021-2024, and I'm certainly going to miss the strides. The next administration will remove what has been, or ignore the continuing proceedings in the bigger actions (a great example of where the latter is going to happen are the Google-Chrome breakup and TikTok ban.

Re: FTC bans hidden junk fees in hotel, event ticket prices

#580

Post by dctoedt »

nxm wrote: post #340
websap wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Khan has been absolutely spectacular for the free markets. Transparency in pricing (with this law), transparency in cancellation of subscriptions, blocking acquisitions where businesses should fail. The free market shouldn't allow monopolies, or duopolies to form. Bad businesses should fail, not absorb more capital and continue scaling.

Her policy changes have been countlessly shut down/overturned by courts since she's overstepped her authority.

> Her policy changes have been countlessly shut down/overturned by courts since she's overstepped her authority.

We have a dysfunctional Congress that can't/won't legislate to fill gaps that emerge over time with new circumstances. Someone will step in to fill those gaps. Sounds like you'd prefer to have corporate execs do so, focused largely on their stock prices, bonuses, and promotion prospects — cf. paperclip-maximizing AGIs [0] — than to have a citizen-advocate do so.

[0] https://www.lesswrong.com/tag/squiggle-maximizer-formerly-pa... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrumental_convergence

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