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The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

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Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#571

Post by ben_w »

underlipton wrote: post #531
ben_w wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rhetorically: Do HOA/lease rules that forbid PV not also prohibit AC dangling out the window? If they allow one and prohibit the other, can they not be changed to allow something else that also dangles from the window?

There'll often be a broad restriction of adornment of any kind outside of a strict list, and/or at the discretion of the HOA/property manager. Many don't allow window AC units. There's a general air of paranoia about anything that could potentially bring down perceived property values, or that might otherwise project a sense that the neighborhood is anything other than a Flanderization of affluence. (There's also a e…

Ah, I see.

For the whole "land of the free" and "free market" thing, the US seems very not that?

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#572

Post by jader201 »

wenc wrote: post #72
jader201 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And brakes. My brake pads rarely touch my rotors. Not only does this (and the things you pointed out) reduce the cost of maintenance, it saves on trips to get them done, and the headaches of the pressure most put on you to get things done you don’t need, just so they can make even more money off of you. Also, EVs on the highway (when hybrids are using the ICE) are much quieter, and have more torque. The only downside…

Is that right? With torque blending, regen braking is blended with friction braking at low speeds (when regen braking is ineffective). Friction braking is always needed to make a full stop.

> Friction braking is always needed to make a full stop.

In my EV6, I have a paddle on the left of my steering wheel that I use (almost) exclusively for braking. It 100% only uses regenerative braking, and I can definitely tell the difference, as its stops are much more subtle than when using the brake pedal for stopping (even when coming to a stop super gently).

More evidence that it doesn't use friction brakes: when I use the left paddle to brake, the car will sometimes edge forward (just an inch or two). With friction braking, this obviously never happens.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#573

Post by ben_w »

solarpunk wrote: post #560
irq-1 wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CEF has financed and developed 6.9MW (~$16M) of low-income-accessible community solar arrays that ... offsets the utility bills of over 700 Minnesota households for the next 25 years $16M for 700 homes = $22,857.14/home That's not an investment, it's just charity by other means.

That number is in the ballpark of what it costs to install solar on a rooftop here in Minnesota. The other part is these solar gardens don't stop paying for your electric bill if you move, so it's especially equitable for renters.

6.9MW / 700 homes is 9.85 kW/home.

Two of these would do more than that (10.5 kW), for (at current exchange rates) $5934, or just over a quarter that price:

https://www.kaufland.de/product/512021383/?search_value=sola...

And even at that price, it's overlapping in price range with the non-solar equivalents.

The funny thing is, I grew up (in the UK) with news stories about how the latest computers were so expensive in the UK that it was cheaper to fly to NYC, buy one, and fly back with it, than to buy local — and now the US is having the same problem in reverse with PV (you might well be able to fit some of the much smaller flexible PV systems I've seen around here in Berlin into oversized luggage).

(Sure, I get that big projects aren't exactly the same as small ones… but usually that makes big things cheaper, not more expensive, even for home PV vs. park PV).

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#574

Post by FactKnower69 »

bane wrote: post #434

I can't believe that the average price of a car in the U.S. is almost $50k. For rapidly depreciating assets. Here I am working out TCO costs for a range of mid-sized cars for my next purchase, and trying to decide if the extra $2k for a Prius Prime over a Prius will beat the differential in fuel costs for my driving situation. I feel like a chump, but I know it's the smarter thing to do with my money. I coworker of m…

If you're an American wondering why you're forced to buy shitty overpriced Teslas instead of those $15k BYD Dolphins, here's Janet Yellen screeching about how unfair it is that China uses its labor force to manufacture consumer goods instead of creating millions of bullshit make-work financialization jobs like good liberal democracies https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/yellen-intends-warn-...

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#575

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

edaemon wrote: post #165
wenc wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that right? With torque blending, regen braking is blended with friction braking at low speeds (when regen braking is ineffective). Friction braking is always needed to make a full stop.

Friction braking is rarely needed to make a full stop. My EV only applies blended braking in specific conditions (cold temps, steep hills, and full battery) and I essentially never touch the brake pedal.

Are you sure it's not actually applying friction brakes?

I have a Model 3, and even when the driving mode is set to "Stop" (enabling one-pedal driving), I know that it's applying the friction brakes at low speeds, even when the battery is warm and not full.

Regen isn't enough to slow the car to a stop, even in ideal conditions, and it certainly can't hold the car in place.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#576

Post by entropicdrifter »

r00fus wrote: post #418
hedora wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Community net monitoring isn’t allowed in California. Instead, PG&E let the grid fall apart, so now they’re charging crippling amounts of money to people that can’t afford solar. On the one hand, with the help of subsidies, our house is off-grid capable, and our power bill is $0-50. On the other hand, there’s a red-tagged neighborhood near by (they built homes despite not having power grid access), and they usually e…

PG&E is a factor in net emigration out of CA. Agreed single-party-controlled states are full of inefficiency (aka corruption).

On the other hand, living in a purple state doesn't necessarily help with corruption either. I live in PA and we had billions "go missing" from our Department of Transportation over the course of over a little over a decade. Things have improved in the last like 6 years or so, but we had to get to the point where our bridges were crumbling and just having permanent detours setup around them first before people really got on a crusade about properly fixing our roads.

Josh Shapiro's done a bang-up job actually properly allocating the funds we managed to get from the big infrastructure bill, but that's been a major change from how things have been for the last 30 years I've lived here.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#577

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

potato3732842 wrote: post #86
jopsen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For most people, their daily trips are well within the range of what an EV can do. And most people don't do long trips every week. Personally, I try to optimize my life to avoid spending a considerable part of it in a car. With charging at home EVs are just easy. For long trips charging every 2-3 hours isn't too bad (most humans benefit from a break anyways).

People who are spending new car money are not going to settle for a product that requires planning and effort to be used outside of one's daily routine. This is also why 3-row SUVs and half ton crew cab trucks have proliferated as much as they have.

> People who are spending new car money are not going to settle for a product that requires planning and effort to be used outside of one's daily routine.

Maybe YOU won't, but others will.

I paid $60K for my Model 3 Performance. Yes, I chose to plan out my charging stops when I take my annual 1300 mile road trip from Portland to Santa Clara, or my recent 2,400 mile road trip from Portland to San Diego.

But I CHOSE to plan them. You don't HAVE to. The car's built-in nav will easy plan charging stops for you. I just choose to plan them out ahead of time (Using ABetterRoutePlanner.com) to min-max my charging time. IE, I can tell ABRP "This will be a stop where I expect to spend at least 30 minutes", and it will adjust the rest of the charging plan accordingly. Or I can tell it to stop at specific chargers that might have a specific place I want to eat, or whatever, but my usual workflow is to set all my destinations (actual destinations, not including chargers), hit Plan Drive, and then make some minor adjustments to the charging plan.

I suppose in some way, I'm sort of proving your point. But it's not nearly the chore you make it out to be. In fact, I actually enjoy the planning. Of course, one person's joy is another's drudgery.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#578

Post by asadotzler »

engineer_22 wrote: post #266
mobilene wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Yep, automakers have deliberately gone after higher profit margins per vehicle. Huge-volume, lower-cost cars are slowly going away. Get one while you can, if that's your thing.

US Congress has mandated a growing list of advanced features, leading to complex vehicles, complex supply chains, and higher sticker prices.

If that were true, you wouldn't be able to buy multiple vehicles for under $18,000, which would have been a $10,000 vehicle at the turn of the century. How many $10,000 cars do you remember from 2000? I was in the market for my 3rd car by then and I can tell you the answer was zero. Cars are actually cheaper today than they've ever been DESPITE the increased safety and emissions features and you are exactly wrong in your claim.

The fact that most cars are priced at $60K doesn't mean cars cost that much to make, it means that the US car makers have decided to stop caring about poor people, leaving them to the used market while they go luxury, chasing ever higher margins from a smaller and smaller but ever-wealthier consumer.

Again, if safety or emissions requirements drove up prices, how is it legal for Nissan, Mitsubishi, Kia/Hundai and others to sell cars that cost under $10K in 2000 dollars when you couldn't buy new in 2000 for anywhere close to that? Just because Ford and GM WONT compete there doesn't mean competing there is cost prohibitive.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#579

Post by asadotzler »

nunez wrote: post #559
HarHarVeryFunny wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps true, but how is this any different to other Chinese products sold at Walmart ?

It's not. Heaps on heaps on heaps of small businesses have been destroyed by cheap international goods that Walmart and Amazon push, and customers have crappier products that don't last as long as a result.

This is incorrect. The products we buy today from the Chinese through big box stores like Walmart (or Amazon) actually last much longer and work far better than the same American-made goods from 25 years ago in those same big box stores before China was so dominant.

Quality is actually going up as prices come down VIA CHINA. You may get comfort pretending otherwise, but Chinese manufacturing is generally far better than US manufacturing at large scale. Sure, you can find some bespoke businesses that make great stuff here, but if you want the best possible smartphone or bluejeans or air conditioner, or automobille, you'd go with China over the US most days of the week.

Re: The withering dream of a cheap American electric car

#580

Post by asadotzler »

Lance_ET_Compte wrote: post #309

Electric cars will not "save the environment". Their purpose is to "save the US automotive industry". The idea that billionaires and car manufacturers would be motivated by anything else is laughable. Support public transportation.

No, wrong. Completely wrong. The US auto industry doesn't believe EVs will save them--they're certain it's going to kill them or almost, but the EV transition is being forced by CARB + ROW (Europe, China and Korea) which don't really give a shit whether the US auto companies like it or not. They will chase China and Korea or die. It's really that simple and has nothing to do with what they want and entirely what they're forced into by global competition and regulation.
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