Live data from Hacker News

Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

news.ycombinator.com

571–580 of 632 posts

Re: Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

#571
post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A $500k aircraft that still requires a PPL solves neither of those, and getting the PPL is contingent on passing the medical, both inititally and at regular intervals thereafter.

I was not saying the plane proposed here will lower the barrier, I’m just stating what I think the barrier is. I think 90% people who aren’t older than 60 or so would get the medical without a problem. If you would remove the medical requirement, you wouldn’t suddenly have double the private pilots. If planes were 1/10th of the price they currently are (both in purchase and operation), you would. Medical isn’t the ma…

Why do you misrepresent what I said? “One of” != the absolute most single thing

Re: Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

#572

How are you going to address the insurance, ownership costs, and FAA certifications for this? Atm, the real barriers to entry in the market are the insanely high regulatory and liability compliance costs--not flight aides, pilot training, or folks with the desire to fly. - Look at the long path that Cirrus had to take with it's "Safe Return" auto-landing feature. - Look at the decades-long adoption curve of even basi…

That should read "low-lead 100LL" avgas.

Basically, the FAA drug their feet despite over a decade of independent testing data that indicated it was perfectly safe to run 100 octane equivalent "low-lead" in almost every extant GA engine.

In the few that couldn't do it (mostly WW2 vintage stuff), they could be adapted to run it during their next required overhaul. These sorts of planes are mostly "ramp-toys" and only get a few tens-of-hours of flight-time every year at air-shows and meet-ups so they have very little environmental and gestalt time-in-airspace safety concerns anyways.

Re: Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

#573

The video and the pitch strike me as odd. The value proposition here is to grow the market for small planes by making them easy. You still need to be rich so this is basically an expensive toy. I'm not sure comparisons to what came before matter, the people who will buy this don't know or care about the existing way to control a plane. All you have to do is show how easy your system is. To which end, why the hell wou…

Based on the comments the submitter made in other subthreads, their long term plan is to market a plane that's in the $100k range, whereas currently you would be looking to dish out at least $400k. Whether that's realistically feasible remains to be seen, but that steep of a cut would surely make it a lot more accessible than it is right now.

Vashon has already been making a new FAA type-certified out-of-the-box $150k plane with modern avionics for a few years.

https://vashonaircraft.com/

I believe they've already delivered around 80 planes to individuals and flight schools.

Given the market for replacement trainers atm, the price will surely drop too.

Re: Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

#574
post #502
post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is flying inherently bad even if carbon-free? I certainly don't think so! No plane is ever going to be carbon- free . The energy source doesn't even matter—producing and transporting the constituent parts and involved people has its own, big, footprint. If a single employee drives to the factory, it's no longer carbon-free; you've just externalized the cost. If your house is burning, you don't use an induction stov…

> If a single employee drives to the factory, it's no longer carbon-free I'm actively really trying to understand your perspective here, and how you do... anything? at all? Ever? Do you not leave the house? If I drive to the factory with my EV and work on a hydrogen airplane using electric tools charged with solar panels, this seems perfectly reasonable. What does not seem reasonable is your complete anti-human anti-…

Im very comfortable with the thought of being unable to make the situation better, but at least I can try to avoid making it actively worse: for example by avoiding unnecessary luxuries like private jets. That is hardly anti-human.

> If I drive to the factory with my EV and work on a hydrogen airplane using electric tools charged with solar panels, this seems perfectly reasonable.

Again: just because you don’t burn gasoline doesn’t mean you’re not causing CO2 emissions (or generate toxic waste etc.). What I am arguing against is unnecessary production of technology—such as personal aviation machines.

Our house is definitely on fire, as a mindbogglingly huge number of scientists has been announcing for quite a while now. People in North America and Europe just don’t get to enjoy the flames yet.

And there is a clear category of things that would be worthwhile: less flights; less concrete and steel; less driving; more local production. It just requires the will to accept painful changes to our way of life.

Re: Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

#575
post #571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not saying the plane proposed here will lower the barrier, I’m just stating what I think the barrier is. I think 90% people who aren’t older than 60 or so would get the medical without a problem. If you would remove the medical requirement, you wouldn’t suddenly have double the private pilots. If planes were 1/10th of the price they currently are (both in purchase and operation), you would. Medical isn’t the ma…

Why do you misrepresent what I said? “One of” != the absolute most single thing

Sorry for that, I didn’t read the thread again when writing the reply. I’m still not sure if I would even call the medical one of the major barriers, but of course I don’t have a statistic on how many people wouldn’t pass a medical.

Re: Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then a doped up former major league pitcher decides to hop in your plane and fly it into the ocean and everything you have done is called into question and you end up buried in lawsuits. Here's what I don't understand. If the same meathead pitcher gets in his Ferrari and drives it into a tree, nobody questions the car company or buries them in lawsuits. Driver crashes car, it's their fault. So wouldn't it stand to…

You can't inject reason into a conversation that is largely defined by $$. GA is an incredibly tiny market - faa.gov has the current active non-student pilot population in the US as less than 500k. The survival of the companies that rely on that population is predicated on the tight regulatory environment - not in spite of it.

I'm sure you're right, but what if that population of people exploded due to a revamped system? Surely they'd benefit from a looser environment as well? I suppose it's a leap of faith they wouldn't be willing to take.

Re: Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

#577
post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about weight or efficiency. If operating costs are lower, it will win out eventually. Current electric aircraft can carry 5 passengers and have a range of 250 miles. They cost half as much to operate per hour, because electricity is so much cheaper than fuel. The main reason why they're not popular is because batteries are expensive. As battery costs decrease, we'll see more of the market adopt them. Will el…

250 miles isn't nearly as much as it sounds - you need to leave plenty of buffer in case something goes wrong so cut some of that off. You also need to get to an airport and then from the other airport to where you are going. Thus most of the time for distances of that range driving is faster. The cases where I've seen this in use are from island to island (or mainland) - where a boat is much slower and there is no b…

The 250 mile range is with the buffer. Beta Technologies has flown their CX300 craft 386 miles on one charge.

Re: Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

#578

MEMS gyro for fly-by-wire airplane using “ clever sensor fusion math” does not sound reassuring At $500,000 why not use the laser-ring gyros that’s hardly cost prohibitive

One expensive laser-ring gyro, or 3+ independent MEMS gyros? I’ll take the multiple independent gyros, thanks.

What vibration rating do those MEMS gyro stay functional, is it airplane adequate?

Re: Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

#579
post #205

This reminds me of programming languages designed with an English-like syntax in the hope that people would be able to develop software without learning to code. It also reminds me a bit of the Ercoupe, an airplane designed in 1937 with the ailerons and rudders mechanically coupled so that pilots would have fewer controls to operate and reduced ability to put the airplane into uncoordinated flight. Neither approach h…

Oh wow. The Ercoupe. Sadly, the original design was found to be an unsafe plane due to very poor spin recovery, but mostly due to being under-powered for its airframe. It actually ended up having a higher-than-mean accident rate for the time which defeated its raison d'etre. There are still more than a few (~200) actively FAA registered today though I'm certain with engine power and control surface upgrades.

It turns out that pilots DO need uncoupled yaw, pitch, and roll controls in order to maintain authority and/or recover from certain behind-power-curve conditions, but they didn't know all the edge case stuff back then.

Many of these early designs, including other notables such as the Dyke Delta, sacrificed general airworthiness for a single notable flight envelope performance characteristic. In the case of the Dyke Delta, very efficient high-speed cruise, but it's far too sensitive to CG, has little practical cargo capacity, poor stall approach/recovery (think snap-stalls), very poor visibility, and longer take-off/landing runway requirements.

I have zero doubt that modern fly-by-wire controls can enable a very car-like piloting experience, but I also have zero doubt that there's no way such an experience can be brought to the GA market that's remotely price-competitive with current non-fly-by-wire offerings.

Additionally, the regulatory environment (at least in the U.S.) still mandates pilot proficiency without any dependency on these flight aides. To use a (very) rough analogy, though we have auto-driving features on modern automobiles, they can't be enabled when obtaining a driver's license. Like with many other human activities, you need to train and certify for the statistical tails though you operate in the fat part of the curve.

The automobile market is also absolutely HUGE with (exponentially) lower upfront regulatory compliance costs that can potentially offer an return on investment to absorb the R&D of fielding a few "radical" early "luxury" models to enable the mass-manufacturing of a "base model" and achieve economies of scale.

The general aviation market is TINY and its large upfront regulatory compliance costs only effectively allow for a new manufacturer to field ONE model for many, many years so that ONE model must be designed VERY conservatively and, essentially, only iterated throughout its lifecycle--never fully redesigned.

Re: Launch HN: Airhart Aeronautics (YC S22) – A modern personal airplane

#580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he can get the required certifications and charge a reasonable price for this plane. There are not enough people interested in a personal airplane at any price to support the costs to bring a new one in the air. You can rebuild all current airplane's (most built before 1980) for much less than the costs to certify a modern replacement, and only then can you start asking what it costs to build that repla…

There's an interesting dynamic here--we (the industry today) are more okay with flying rickety airplanes from the 70s before flying something built with more modern engineering and production techniques. > As I understand it the idea here is to expand the market and spread certification costs out over more planes. exactly. > There are not enough people interested in a personal airplane at any price to support the cos…

> There's an interesting dynamic here--we (the industry today) are more okay with flying rickety airplanes from the 70s before flying something built with more modern engineering and production techniques.

Any insights on why that is? My gut feeling is that it’s some combination of cost (there’s still a huge glut of old and cheap planes that basically work fine) and skepticism towards new, less proven models and technologies (i.e. the perception of Cirrus changed very slowly over a decade plus to where now the chute is generally accepted to be a good thing to have).

Post reply on HN