The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community • Hacker News Board

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#571

Post by chongli » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 6:04 AM UTC

lawlessone wrote: post #241

StopTheWorld wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professor Michael Rosenfeld at Stanford does research on how heterosexual couples in the US meet ( https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/ ). In 1940, over 50% met via friends or family. About 36% met at school. In 2021, about 20% met via friends or family. About 10% met at school. Over 50% met online. So the majority of US couples are now meeting via profit-maximizing corporations. He has a 2019 paper on this (and it ha…

I'm surprised dating sites work well enough that 50% of customers meet via it. They've no incentive to help you leave.

I'm surprised dating sites work well enough that 50% of customers meet via it

It’s not that surprising when you think of selection effects. Suppose you have a sack full of marbles. Half of the marbles are pink and the other half are random assorted colours. Now reach into the sack and pull out two marbles. If they match then they get married and you set them aside, otherwise return them to the sack.

It’s easy to see that it won’t take very long until hardly any pink marbles remain. After that it’s going to be a total crapshoot to pull out a pair of matching marbles. Maybe some more pink ones get added at a later date but they’ll match and get removed.

The fundamental problem with dating sites cannot be solved by any business model: marriageable people (or otherwise people who can form and maintain a longterm relationship) are removed from the pool of potential dates. What’s left are all those who can’t or won’t form relationships. These “misfits” (for lack of a better term) tend to get concentrated in the pool over time. Perhaps it even gets so bad that marriageable people give up and just avoid dating sites.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#572

Post by toyg » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 6:08 AM UTC

dmkolobov wrote: post #364

silverquiet wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's always looked to me like from a first approximation, people just do whatever they want and come up with justifications. The smarter they are, the more elaborate the justification. I doubt I'm above it.

Right. I would argue that organized religion provides(provided?) a guided framework of accountability, transparency, and acceptance for your "justifications" amongst your community. In a vacuum, these differences compound into a complete breakdown of understanding. It's harder to call someone a "libtard" or a "troglodyte" if you have to sit next to them in a pew for the rest of your life.

I fail to see how being forced to confess your crimes to someone who can then informally blackmail you or your employer, for the benefit of an elected dictator-for-life living on the other side of the ocean, provides any "transparency" or "accountability" towards the community.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#573

Post by toyg » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 6:16 AM UTC

dmkolobov wrote: post #299

krapp wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

God is not true, at least not the sense that any religion claims (God as an abstraction and a meme is as real as any other, as real as Harry Potter or Slenderman) Claims of absolute moral right or authority derived from divine right are not true. Claims made by the religious that belief in God is a prerequisite to morality, community or cultural identity are not true. Claims made by religious teachings about the natu…

Growing up in Nashville I've frequently heard that religion is a prerequisite to ethics. While I disagree in principle, I struggle to come up with an example where philosophy and ethics are discussed in a secular setting outside of school(academia included) and politics. It would not surprise me that on the whole our society is worse off for lack of a widespread secular tradition of discussing these concepts with you…

> an example where philosophy and ethics are discussed in a secular setting

That's what the intellectual cafes of 18th/19th century were. In a more bastardized way, that's what pubs can be today.

This said, school and "politics" have always been the main locations for such arguments - "politics", after all, was effectively built as an alternative to religious establishments to discuss matters without pesky clerics around.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#574

Post by CPLX » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 6:20 AM UTC

jrussino wrote: post #411

StopTheWorld wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professor Michael Rosenfeld at Stanford does research on how heterosexual couples in the US meet ( https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/ ). In 1940, over 50% met via friends or family. About 36% met at school. In 2021, about 20% met via friends or family. About 10% met at school. Over 50% met online. So the majority of US couples are now meeting via profit-maximizing corporations. He has a 2019 paper on this (and it ha…

Interestingly, there was another big shift happening from 1940-1980: - in 1940, the top 3 were: met through family, met through friends, met in primary school. In that order, but pretty much equal - From 1940-1980, two of those three (family, primary school) trended sharply downward, as did "met in church", while these trended upward: met through friends, met in bar or restaurant, met as or through coworkers, met in…

If I message with someone on a dating app a few times and then make arrangements so the first time I encounter them in the physical world is a bar where did I “meet” them?

The subjective answer to this question might be at least part of this statistic.

Also you may be underestimating the number of people who pair up as part of nightlife outings. Based on my many many outings in cities around the world in recent years it does seem at a glance that people are still engaged in the practice.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#575

Post by CPLX » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 6:24 AM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #538

paulryanrogers wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I frankly find marriage to be nothing short of a human rights violation anyway. Just curious, but how could marriage be a rights violation?

First the axiom so we're all on the same page: I truly and wholeheartedly agree with and believe in the notion that life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness are unalienable rights. Marriage is many things, but chief among them is that marriage is an inevitable compromise of each others' liberties and therein lies the violation. Who am I to compromise my would-be wife's unalienable right to liberty? Who is my would-be…

> If we also were to have children, I/we would also be imposing my/our will upon them. I/we would be violating our childrens' unalienable right to liberty and potentially pursuit of happiness. I cannot accept that.

What? The only way to avoid mass human rights violations is the extinction of the human race in one generation?

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#576

Post by hitsurume » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 6:25 AM UTC

NickC25 wrote: post #334

Kids don't even play video games together in the same room any more. LAN parties were a thing in the 90s but everyone was in the same room(ish). Even when playing console games people don't game together in the same room or home. That's kinda odd. Online gaming is cool but my favorite gaming memories are playing with the person sitting next to me. I miss those days, and wish kids knew what it was like to play games t…

Yep. Also besides Lan parties, we had the N64, which allowed 4 peoplo play together. GoldenEye and various Mario games were a blast. the next generation had Halo and linking Xbox's together. Now a days I don't think kids or teens are having that same kind of fun we did back in the day.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#577

Post by CPLX » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 6:26 AM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #563

XorNot wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I consider the entire premise of marriage is that it is a permanent thing until death do us part. Right so you invented a notion of marriage which doesn't apply in the society you live in and then invented a problem created by that invented supposition. This all sounds very normal.

If marriage is not some kind of "special" arrangement, why do we place so much value on the concept? Marriage is clearly very different from and more significant than simple friendship or other mundane relationship arrangement, and everyone's reasoning as to why will vary depending upon their religious and/or cultural upbringing and values. Personally, as I stated earlier, I consider marriage to be some kind of perma…

> If marriage is not some kind of "special" arrangement, why do we place so much value on the concept?

Marriage is an economic and logistical framework for the raising of children.

Any society that doesn’t come up with a viable way to raise children ceases to exist almost immediately.

So that’s why.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#578

Post by 317070 » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 6:28 AM UTC

SoftTalker wrote: post #147

sameoldtune wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was just talking with a friend about this. The reason older people tend to play repetitive card games isn’t because they are captivating, it is just a thin excuse to spend a few relaxing hours together. After a few months of hesitation I’ve gotten some of my friends into playing simple games like euchre and hearts and the quality of our time together has gone up significantly.

IDK that hasn't been my experience. When I've gotten together with people to play euchre it's always people who are super competitive about it, get annoyed if you misplay a hand, and don't talk about anything except how good or bad their last hand was.

Exactly! High quality social time, interaction with real other people. A great excuse to get together.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#579

Post by littlestymaar » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 6:29 AM UTC

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #526

silisili wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a strange feeling that some of those are just people too embarassed to say they met online Probably right. I don't really get the stigma, but I've known a few people personally who told the same lie and found later it was online. One in particular had a huge elaborate story about their bar meeting. His wife told me later one day he basically selected her from a website. So like most questions, probably worth…

Also interesting insofar as what "met online" means. Dating apps are certainly the most common, but one of my partners and I met on a Discord server for a shared interest, which is certainly "online" but not necessarily in the same context as "dating apps"

This. I have a couple of friends who actually met their partner on World of Warcraft in the mid 2000s. But I suspect it's a very small fraction of the “online” group, especially nowadays with dating apps being so prevalent.

Re: The upstream cause of the youth mental health crisis is the loss of community

#580

Post by hitsurume » Sat, Aug 03, 2024, 6:30 AM UTC

kylehotchkiss wrote: post #466

I want to share what I imagine would be a controversial data point but one that I hope has value to this conversation - I recently decided to join a church just to reconnect with faith that I had pushed aside back in 2016, and with the church, a small group. It's working for me. I am making older friends for the first time in my life, and despite me generally not aligning with people politically, I'm just biting my t…

Churches don't pay taxes. They collect money from attendee's to pay for the real estate they occupy.

Any other gathering / community has to deal with these real world problems before they can attract people.

In my college years, there were clubs or fraternities, and they could use classrooms or student unions as low cost resources to gather in person and foster community. I think that's a barrier as an adult.