Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#571

Post by vkou » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 9:06 AM UTC

LeafItAlone wrote: post #395

agust wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the EU immediately stepped in and explained them what the consequences of breaking the law would be, and Apple budged, caved, backed down. Not getting out of this one.

That only makes sense if we assume Apple’s world class legal team didn’t see what every lay person could. Rolling back the decision is not going to get them out of the eyes of the regulators and they must have assumed that going into it. Why give the EU even more ammo against you. My guess is that they saw that all happening but Epic provided them a letter saying they double pinky promised, cross their hearts, will o…

> That only makes sense if we assume Apple’s world class legal team didn’t see what every lay person could

Legal doesn't make decisions like this. That's not what they are paid to do.

Legal advises the executives of the consequences of decisions like this.

And if there's one thing that you should expect from people in positions of incredible power (executives), it's that they often believe that they are immune to the consequences of their decisions.

Most of the time they are right. Sometimes, they are not.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#572

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 9:13 AM UTC

giantrobot wrote: post #307

IncandescentGas wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very problematic when monopolies are involved. “You are banned from Taco Bell for the rest of your life” is very different from “You are banned from all restaurants anywhere for the rest of your life.” If all restaurants are Taco Bell, is it reasonable to allow such bans by taco bell?

Actual monopolies (utility companies forex) are required to do business with people. Utility companies which almost always are regional monopolies have to deal with customers so long as bills are paid. There's also processes for halting service in the case of non-payment. The utility can't cut your power because you were mean to them on Twitter. Apple is not a monopoly anywhere on the planet and has no such requireme…

But it should have some of those requirements, because it's close enough to the space of being a monopoly.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#573

Post by ncruces » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 9:21 AM UTC

Jensson wrote: post #433

agust wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, they banned Epic's account after the DMA took effect.

No they didn't, Apple banned Epics account March 6, DMA took effect March 7.

The DMA has been in force since November 2022 and became applicable in 2023.

There was a grace period for compliance for companies found in violation, because that determination was made after it came into force, not before.

You can't find a company to violate a regulation that's not in force, and it's reasonable to give a company in violation of complex piece of law (that's never been tested) some period to comply.

But that doesn't mean the law is not already in force.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#574

Post by rahkiin » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 9:31 AM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #524

burnerthrow008 wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of those things where there is only upside for everyone involved. Except all of us who value privacy and security. Face it: the major competition between app stores is not going to be on price, but a race to the bottom on who can allow apps to fuck over users the hardest.

Hey, maybe Apple should have thought of that and reduced their app store fee to 5% years ago then. Nobody would be going after Apple if they had simply stopped their monopoly pricing scheme. Its too late for that now. Now Apple is going to be forced, under threat of government action, to stop its anti-competitive actions.

At 5% devs like epic would still complain about all the other rules or that 5% is too high.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#575

Post by rahkiin » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 9:36 AM UTC

Moldoteck wrote: post #545

roamerz wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My suggestion would give consumers an additional choice. Sounds like that is something you are against? I thought that this was what this was all about.

Dma offers exactly that. Consumers can (or will be able to) choose to use apple defaults or not at any time of owning the device

As long as consumers can choose to download WhatsApp from the App Store and are then not forced to use some tracking Meta store.

Dma is mostly about choice for a couple of developers. Not for users. No way will Epic publish games on their own and Apples store, they did not do it with the Epic Store either. Consumers did not have a choice where to buy when Epic bought exclusive access.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#576

Post by roenxi » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 9:36 AM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #446

jfoster wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difficult to imagine what Apple were thinking in the first place. Did they actually think there was a chance the EU would let this slide? Best I can tell, all they've achieved is bringing even greater scrutiny on themselves.

When reason fails to explain people's actions, it gives you a measure of the strength of their ideology on something. In this case, you can see how deeply they believe in the concept of complete authoritarian control of their ecosystem. Enough that logic and practical outcomes barely matter in comparison.

Well... all corporations [0] are modelled after authoritarian states. The only model that seems to work is a single person with dictatorial power and a tree shaped hierarchy. Pretty much everyone does that, and the exceptions prove the rule. It isn't weird that they have authoritarian views of how their assets should be managed.

Hold in mind that everything involves trade offs. Authoritarianism is really good at monomaniacal focus on something that the dictator thinks is important, they just tend to fail at all the other stuff. And it is fine - indeed, remarkably effective - as long as people can leave when the focus isn't benefiting them.

Democracy sucks at pretty much everything except being flexible in the face of change and empowering voters. You do not want your food supply being run according to democratic principles, you want it to work.

[0] And most open source projects AFAIK

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#577

Post by creativeSlumber » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 9:41 AM UTC

EMIRELADERO wrote: post #559

dwaite wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So are you saying that Apple is not providing the same API to third party marketplaces as they leverage in their own App Store?

Pretty much, plus to independent developers who wish to use the IPA installation off the web feature. (The Article speaks about "features", not just APIs) Remember that it says "free of charge". 50 cents/install past 1M installs is not free of charge now is it?

I can't understand the cost basis for that fee that apple is imposing. If I install an thrid party app from a third party store to my phone, it wouldn't cost apple anything. Even the bandwidth cost to download is from the third party store. In this transaction, actually Apple will be the unrelated "third party"that has nothing to do with that transaction. So isn't this fee just an extortion attempt?

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#578

Post by Vespasian » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 9:46 AM UTC

015a wrote: post #273

adastra22 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think monopoly is the right word here.

Right; I think the correct frame is, major operating systems are utilities . They must be regulated the same way that all systemically important utilities are regulated; heavily. Monopolies are natural, and arguably desirable, with utilities; but they need to be subject to extremely strong regulation to maintain the right balance. The DMA was always phrased from the wrong perspective (which is just classic EU, they l…

While this is an interesting idea and I personally would welcome such regulation it probably wouldn't solve the problem the EU is trying to address.

Android allows the installation of alternative app stores but Google still retains large effective control over the app market.

I would argue that the EU recognised that and therefore regulated Operating systems and app stores because the former one isn't enough apparently.

If things continue along this trajectory we may see the utility argument at the store level and at the OS level.

Looking at how the electric power distribution industry is regulated it already works like this (at least here in Germany).

On the one hand grid operators are heavily regulated (as you say) and must allow companies without infrastructure to resell power to end customers.

On the other hand the actual owner of the last mile infrastructure is also forced to do business with all customers and has very little freedom to refuse(e.g. non-payment is a temporary valid reason).

We may very well see something similar in the software distribution market since it's becoming such an integral part of life.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#579

Post by saagarjha » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 9:48 AM UTC

dwaite wrote: post #551

saagarjha wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By going through their public comments where they complain about what Apple is doing? Sounds like a poor way to vet developers.

This is hardly out of the blue. Epic's CEO testified how they not only premeditated breaking their contract with Apple, but arranged a PR campaign around it and orchestrated a 'grass roots' effort at the same time. Blocking Fortnite updates on iOS devices was an inconvenience for users compared to terminating the use of an entire gaming marketplace due to the next round of vigilante contract violation by Epic.

Ok, but it's not like breaking a contract like this is unheard of. Apple did literally the same thing to Qualcomm, for example, back when they decided they didn't want to pay money for modems. "You said some bad words about us and decided that you didn't like the contract" is literally business. Companies are not people that you are doing a personal affront to.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#580

Post by DeusExMachina » Sat, Mar 09, 2024, 9:49 AM UTC

freedomben wrote: post #438

mulmen wrote: post #372

Apple believes this is an existential threat and they are fighting against it as hard as they can. But is this a self-fulfilling prophecy? These actions come with a cost. This gives Epic visibility and it harms trust in Apple’s brand. How do they balance these costs against the perceived threat?

Does it harm trust in Apple's brand? From what I can gather, people who already love and trust Apple want them to do this. They view the status quo as better, and would likely lose trust if Apple didn't fight this as much as possible.

I used to love Apple, but through these actions over the years they transformed me into someone who hates them.