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United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

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Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#571

Post by __loam »

vegetablepotpie wrote: post #405
ethbr1 wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect even at its worst, software development could learn a lot from aircraft QA. Especially since most shops have pretty much tossed professional career QA out the window.

I work in the defense industry, it’s very much like the aerospace industry in that we deal with human life as a consequence of our work. We have software QA departments that operate very much like manufacturing or aerospace QA. Software QA provides nothing of value to software development; having it as a dedicated function works against the overtly stated goals of the function and counterintuitively acts to degrade q…

High quality comment

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#572

Post by pests »

talldatethrow wrote: post #562
johnwalkr wrote: post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a complex topic. Depending on the design, lubrication may be required or forbidden. And if it's required, it should normally be on the threads only, under the head is usually forbidden. And it's very important to understand that in most mechanical design with fasteners, the fasteners provide tension, and friction between 2 faces actually carries the load. Too little tension then fasteners can be sheared off. Too…

Ive been working on cars and motorcycles and everything else other than airplanes for almost 25 years now, from motor swaps to transmission rebuild and custom suspension. The only time I ever use is a torque wrench is on engine internals, or smaller fancy areas into aluminum. Everything else, over the years, you learn by feel. You pay attention to the size of the bolt, the material it's going into, and it's overall j…

The size of a bolt head is directly related to it's target/max torque due to the increased leverage from the larger rotation. This wasn't obvious to me at first but it's helped for rough guesses when I didn't know exact values.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#573

Post by MarkMarine »

I was responsible for safe for flight inspections on military aircraft and the photo included in that post is completely insane to me.

Those bolts being loose (and they are BIG bolts) would mean multiple people in the installation process didn’t do their jobs, and signed their life on the line saying they did.

When I did maintenance, there was someone (QA) there to witness every torqued bolt, inspect every safety wire and installed part.

There is something rotten in Boeing.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#574

Post by BlueUmarell »

shermantanktop wrote: post #508
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in the defense industry, it’s very much like the aerospace industry in that we deal with human life as a consequence of our work. We have software QA departments that operate very much like manufacturing or aerospace QA. Software QA provides nothing of value to software development; having it as a dedicated function works against the overtly stated goals of the function and counterintuitively acts to degrade q…

I’m going to be using “moral crumple zone” in every conversation I possibly can from now on.

"Hey, wanna hang out with a beer this evening?"

"Nah, I don't need to slouch anymore in this moral crumple zone!"

"We need this new feature in our program!"

"If we implement this it means the management fell in a moral crumple zone"

"What seat would you have to have for your flight?"

"Anywhere, but not in the moral crumple zone, please"

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#575

Post by moring »

vegetablepotpie wrote: post #446
Eisenstein wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like they are calling something QA but using it as a liability shield. It makes sense that you are upset about that, but naming something QA and having it do something else doesn't mean that QA as an effort is bad. It means that the people doing that are being deceptive.

Fair point, you are correct in your inference that there are some bad actors in my workplace. However, I’ll argue that the fundamental dynamics of bifurcating the responsibility of quality from software leads to a steady state where all QA departments end up as a liability shield given enough time. This is driven by Pournelle's iron law of bureaucracy [1], which says that people who promote the bureaucracy rather tha…

I have seen a case of Software QA taking a very different shape, so I'd like to argue that the outcome you describe is not intrinsic to software QA, but rather to company culture.

The case I'm talking about does not have a separate QA department, but QA people as part of every software team. If a product fails, that team is responsible, so software devs are in the same boat as QA. They focus on learning from these failures, so no scapegoat is needed. Process does get followed, but not as a defense mechanism, but because not doing so introduces noise that is an obstacle to improvement. In case of bad outcomes, people do point out that they followed process because then it is clear that the process is involved in the failure and should be improved.

Unfortunately, companies with that kind of culture are rare.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#576

Post by RF_Savage »

MarkMarine wrote: post #573

I was responsible for safe for flight inspections on military aircraft and the photo included in that post is completely insane to me. Those bolts being loose (and they are BIG bolts) would mean multiple people in the installation process didn’t do their jobs, and signed their life on the line saying they did. When I did maintenance, there was someone (QA) there to witness every torqued bolt, inspect every safety wir…

The management imported from McDonnel-Douglas?

The same management that drove it to ground?

The fish rots from the head. And these constant problems sure do sound like a new company culture of cutting corners instead engineering first.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#577

Post by madhadron »

bb88 wrote: post #488
vegetablepotpie wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in the defense industry, it’s very much like the aerospace industry in that we deal with human life as a consequence of our work. We have software QA departments that operate very much like manufacturing or aerospace QA. Software QA provides nothing of value to software development; having it as a dedicated function works against the overtly stated goals of the function and counterintuitively acts to degrade q…

> Good software teams build quality into projects by introducing continuous integration, unit testing, creating feedback, and tightening these feedback loops. No. Good software teams are led by competent, technical management. Managers who aren't afraid to get down into the dirty details. Managers who aren't afraid to roll up their sleeves and write code if they need to. The process doesn't matter. The management of…

> Good software teams are led by competent, technical management.

...or perhaps with no managers at all. I'm less and less convinced of the importance of management in engineering except to give investors an illusion of control.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#578

Post by johnnyworker »

bb88 wrote: post #523
johnnyworker wrote: post #514

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that doesn't contradict the parent, does it? I'd say you both make good points.

Well... here's a thought experiment. Let's say you have a bunch of school children and architects create a skyscraper. I've given both groups the process to design a skyscraper. So in both cases, I should end up with a safe building?

Why not both? Am I missing something? You can have feedback loops and CI and all that, "good craftsmanship" or "good practices" (not "best" practices because those often suck hah), where of course opinions vary on the details of that -- and then someone who is also good at the craft who spends more or most time on helping the rest work together, i.e. manage/lead them.

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#579

Post by shermantanktop »

BlueUmarell wrote: post #574
shermantanktop wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going to be using “moral crumple zone” in every conversation I possibly can from now on.

"Hey, wanna hang out with a beer this evening?" "Nah, I don't need to slouch anymore in this moral crumple zone!" "We need this new feature in our program!" "If we implement this it means the management fell in a moral crumple zone" "What seat would you have to have for your flight?" "Anywhere, but not in the moral crumple zone, please"

An example from my actual work life, lightly fictionalized—

Them: “Please review this design.”

Me: “Ok, sure, when do you plan to start coding?”

Them: “Oh, it’s already in beta.”

Me: “So you can’t do anything with my feedback, but you’ll say I reviewed it?”

Them: “Well…”

Me: “You’re putting me in a moral crumple zone here!”

Re: United finds loose bolts on plug doors during 737 Max 9 inspections

#580

Post by radu_floricica »

dphidt wrote: post #385

I am curious why the door plug is not a plug door — that is, a design wherein the desired panel would be installed from the inside and sealed by the differential pressure, like a cabin door. This part looks more similar to cargo door; those usually have to open outward for space, but what is the design constraint for this case?

Yep, that's the top level design mistake. They should be locked passively by the pressure differential.
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