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FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

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Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#571

Post by Dalewyn »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #533
WalterBright wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's safer to have a new airplane design behave like the old one. There have been many crashes due a pilot being stressed and automatically doing something that would have been right on a previous airplane he was familiar with, but which was wrong for the current airplane he is flying. All jet airliners are aerodynamically unstable and use active controls to "paper over" that. There is nothing inherently wrong with d…

> All jet airliners are aerodynamically unstable and use active controls to "paper over" that. This is flatly wrong. The only aerodynamically unstable planes are experimental and some fighter jets. No passenger plane can be certified if it can't be proven that it is aerodynamically stable. EDIT: don't take my word, here is a short explanation by a 777 pilot: https://youtu.be/EuVlbVr_jrs?feature=shared&t=129

Aerodynamic stability refers to the desire of an aircraft to return to straight and level flight without any control inputs.

Stability is also commonly understood as the opposite of maneuverability, as a more stable aircraft is less maneuverable.

Combat aircraft such as fighters are designed to be aerodynamically unstable so their maneuverability is unhindered. Likewise stunt planes and other aircraft whose job is to not fly straight and level.

Aircraft such as passenger and cargo airliners are designed to be aerodynamically stable because their job is to fly straight and level with good fuel economy and minimal piloting, they do not need swift and nimble maneuverability.

The safety of an aircraft has no relation to that aircraft's aerodynamic stability.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#572

Post by jdksmdbtbdnmsm »

halJordan wrote: post #311
jdksmdbtbdnmsm wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in other words: capitalism, the system we've designed our whole society around

Ah yes, the same capitalism that was around for the building of this industry that was incredibly safe up until it wasnt? Or was it safe because it was heavily regulated back then but the heavy regulations today we ignore because "capitalism"? You cant just throw these single word thought-terminators out there. When an actual cartoon is doing better than you it's time to recalibrate. "Think Mark! Think!"

Why do you think regulatory efforts have been undermined? Karl Marx showed us 150 years ago how a government under capitalism always tends toward domination by capitalists.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#573

Post by lostlogin »

belter wrote: post #449
roody15 wrote: post #419

Interesting timeline. Following the two fatal crashes involving the MCAS system and the 737 Max … The FAA gave Boeing until Dec of 2022 to implement a fix. The fix was to reconfigure the 737 Max with 2 sensors (instead of one) and include an manual shutoff Guess what happened? Boeing didn’t fix anything.. instead they cried to congress that the fix is too expensive and they cannot get it done. So what happens is cong…

Yeah, I heard Boeing even has it's own Presidential candidate...

A brief search of who Boeing donates to is a bit depressing.

I know that they have parted ways now, but Haley has managed to sit on both sides of negotiations between government and Boeing.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#574

Post by WalterBright »

jnsaff2 wrote: post #533
WalterBright wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's safer to have a new airplane design behave like the old one. There have been many crashes due a pilot being stressed and automatically doing something that would have been right on a previous airplane he was familiar with, but which was wrong for the current airplane he is flying. All jet airliners are aerodynamically unstable and use active controls to "paper over" that. There is nothing inherently wrong with d…

> All jet airliners are aerodynamically unstable and use active controls to "paper over" that. This is flatly wrong. The only aerodynamically unstable planes are experimental and some fighter jets. No passenger plane can be certified if it can't be proven that it is aerodynamically stable. EDIT: don't take my word, here is a short explanation by a 777 pilot: https://youtu.be/EuVlbVr_jrs?feature=shared&t=129

> This is flatly wrong.

Look up dutch roll, the active yaw damper that suppresses it, and the FAA requirement that all of them have a yaw damper installed.

Besides, the MAX is not unstable. All it was supposed to do was just nudge the nose down a bit to match the profile of the previous 737 jets.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#575

Post by Dah00n »

dahdum wrote: post #109
panarky wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> safest airliner ever built ... very low production numbers If one model has 5 million flight hours and zero crashes, and another model has 500 million flight hours and 50 crashes, is it possible to say which model is safer?

I’ll take the one with 50 crashes any time. That’s 50 times something went catastrophically wrong and 50 times measures were taken to fix the underlying problems. A brand new plane will undoubtedly have brand new problems.

I'm not sure if I agree or not, but my thinking were that it wouldn't reach great safety by upgrades until long after it became too expensive for Boeing and would instead be replaced with a new model.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#576

Post by orwin »

onpointed wrote: post #316
jdksmdbtbdnmsm wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Competition is a core principle of capitalism Capitalism is literally defined by the ability to invest capital to accumulate more of it by way of profit. The logical end of this process is straightforwardly monopoly.

And if the world/environment/context of the business didn’t change then the monopolies might last, but because there is change there is room to innovate and outcompete the monopolies.

Yeah, no. You'll be bought in 95% of cases if you threaten a monopolistic position. That's why I'm really fond of signal btw.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#577

Post by phpisthebest »

roody15 wrote: post #419

Interesting timeline. Following the two fatal crashes involving the MCAS system and the 737 Max … The FAA gave Boeing until Dec of 2022 to implement a fix. The fix was to reconfigure the 737 Max with 2 sensors (instead of one) and include an manual shutoff Guess what happened? Boeing didn’t fix anything.. instead they cried to congress that the fix is too expensive and they cannot get it done. So what happens is cong…

I guess that depends on what you believe a "functioning democracy" because yes we are are "functioning democracy", the fact that the outcome is not what you desire do not mean it is non-functional.

Keeping in mind that a democracy was never the goal, and being a democracy is actually the root of the problem. Looking to the federal government for solutions to all of these problems is the the problem itself.

People expecting the government to fix everything is the problem....

Maybe instead of acting "are we a functioning democracy", the better question is "how can we solve these problems with out government..."

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#578

Post by WalterBright »

Dalewyn wrote: post #571
jnsaff2 wrote: post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All jet airliners are aerodynamically unstable and use active controls to "paper over" that. This is flatly wrong. The only aerodynamically unstable planes are experimental and some fighter jets. No passenger plane can be certified if it can't be proven that it is aerodynamically stable. EDIT: don't take my word, here is a short explanation by a 777 pilot: https://youtu.be/EuVlbVr_jrs?feature=shared&t=129

Aerodynamic stability refers to the desire of an aircraft to return to straight and level flight without any control inputs. Stability is also commonly understood as the opposite of maneuverability, as a more stable aircraft is less maneuverable. Combat aircraft such as fighters are designed to be aerodynamically unstable so their maneuverability is unhindered. Likewise stunt planes and other aircraft whose job is to…

Airliners also have to work at low speed in thick air, and high speed in thin air. Swept wings, for example, perform poorly at lower speeds.

An airliner has to perform well at both, which is why wings are swept, yet have flaps and slats to modify their aerodynamic profile. Swept wings have other problems, like dutch roll.

Airliners also become uncontrollable above a certain speed, which was a contributing factor to the EA crash (the crew ignored the overspeed warning).

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#579

Post by WalterBright »

vkou wrote: post #475
WalterBright wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Soviet built airliners are known for their safety?

Is there any kind of alternative that could be found, or have we reached the end of history, with our only two options being 2023 capitalism versus 1960s Soviet state capitalism?

Airplanes are designed by people, and are enormously complex. No system involving humans will be free of mistakes.

Re: FAA orders grounding of more than 170 Boeing 737 Max 9s

#580

Post by phpisthebest »

bobthepanda wrote: post #546
peyton wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From FAA.gov: > We're responsible for the safety of civil aviation. https://www.faa.gov/about/mission/activities Maybe the people responsible are the people who say they’re responsible?

The FAA gets authorized by Congress. Congress is actually the one with the constitutional power to legislate, so can override executive agencies like the grandparent describes.

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